Amps? (Off Topic)

by GC, Saturday, February 10, 2007, 22:33 (6278 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by GC, Saturday, February 10, 2007, 23:25

Are you ready?...OK, here we go

Hi GC,

I found this guy praising the Kharmas:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/kharma_mp150.htm

Since your ever so trustworthy advises on amps :bey:, last monday (when
you posted this) I read the article, and immediately started looking for a
bunch of these in my neighbourhood. I even found a pair for sale, mailed
the seller, and within the hour he called me that he had already sold
them.
However, I was on the phone with him for nearly an hour, and we a.o. we
talked about the class D stuff;

The guy lives by buying amps and everything, and after judging for a
couple of months he sells it again.
Since he already sold the Kharma's I could bring him to speak freely. He
directly or implicitly made clear :

Although the Kharma's surely are not bad, for him there is not any
indication that they, or any other class D hype amp for that matter, is
better than the "old" stuff. Note that amongst his current selling items
there's also thingy's like the
Kronzilla
which btw really might be something for you (the tubes are milk bottle
size).

I would never defend any class GC being the best in general. I heard what I heard with the even sick NuForces and eventual sick SETs. I mean everything could be sick here?
I will give it a try to explain by words what I heard, even the risk of stealing from some one elses vocabulary excist.

So: If I might use a sort of termology from the photo world I should say the D-amp shows a sound stage composed of Giga x Tera-pixels which turns on and off at infinite speed. When they are on, they are on at laser strength, when their off it is a dark hole in the universe. All nuances in between are liniearly expressed.
Hence the extreme detailed sound picture.
Hence the extreme combinations of colors.
Hence the extreme contrast.
Hence each pixel can be heard seperately.
Hence the neighbour pixel and it's neighbour pixel can be heard at the same time.
Hence all pixels can be percepted all at once or non at once and everything in between.
Hence the, at the one side, extremely saturated soundstage, and at the other side, drop dead silence when no signal is applied.
An incredible fast materialization of sound and it's emmidiate disappearence again.
Subjectively low distortion.
The ability to treat the whole freq. spectar the same way.
Like a black box.
Sounding of nothing and still a suffix of sweetness.

If you take my SET it adds, distracts, multiply and cross talks all the above qualities in a way, that the sound picture show a kind of "Vanilla Fudge" of everything. It caNot pinpoint anything that clear and it involves itself non stop. You have to love it, to like it.
By direct comparison the SET is talking rubbish.
Leaving the SETs back into the system for some time you start to like it again....until the D-amp is back.

Now I did not say that there is nothing better than a D-amp. I simply don't know. But it is very hard for me to beleive a tubeamp would do the pixel example, no matter the price tag.

My speakers are sort of "warm" sounding. Sligtly sweet. Extremely transparent and drop dead dynamic. Low distortion and bla bla bla...
They show a very big difference between the amps pressent in this house. Regardless my outdated play back system. he he he...

If your telephone contact did not feel any significant difference between all the amps he tried, I tend to beleive that he doesn't pocess an instrument that can show a difference. The speakers or even the ears?

Also, my "research" on the class D subject, seems to show that these amps
live in their own world of "cheap" and DIY areas with a high value for
money reatio, but which clearly to me does *not* mean it might (!) be good
for me and you in absolute sense.
For example, any itself respecting Audio store does not sell class D
stuff, or it must be hard soldered in the insides of a subwoofer. Worse,
nobody sells these things overhere (though I must be careful, because
"everybody" might buy from the internet and sell these days, but that's
different from stores doing it).

All that might just be pre-justices. It's rather cheap. It's small. It hides away easily and don't produce heat.
Any mass product producer would stuff that into their boomy boxes.
That no one sells the stuff might be reasoned by not many produces D-amps in high-end classes???

For me the theoretical advantages of the Kharma would be that this does
*not* have a switching PSU, and I think that is about all (it doesn't
feedback I think). Yeah, its power consumption, which BTW would really
something to get me going for such an amp. But hey, what about the sound.

It is really a pitty I couldn't get the Kharma's, because now, so far, the
status remains that the class D (or "T") come to me as a failure. Just by
the two experiences to far (which would be the NuForce and the Sonic
T-amp).

I keep on thinking that the Red Wine matchbox can do jobs which other of
that class amps don't, just because its battery design, which for me
somehow feels as the only solution to the 1mm2 capacitors needed for those
designs. In the end I think it's a (working) placebo because of the weight
the batteries add. Anyway, this one too can't be gotten here that I know
of.

Well again Peter, I do not either really know on which shelf in my already cemented concervative world picture, I should put the D-amps.
But does it matter if they sound good. As good as any amp or even better?

What, actually, is our problem ?

Alcohol??? Stop kidding GC :embarressed:

It looks like several of us are looking for better amps;
For me, the following reasons account :

1. Less power comsumption at 24/7
2. Better theory of operation.

Ad 2.
I do *not* feel any lack of quality. Just NOT. It took me over a full year
to select my current dual stereo A10 Dusons former AudioAnalyse) some 15
years ago, them being the most neutral and capable of driving my 87dB
almost former Infinity's. Note : might someone want to buy them, they will
be for sale whenever I've found what I want.
What I want is full class A, and no feedback (the Dusons are A/B, btw
theoretically operating at A with 112dB speakers behind them.

Again, I do not feel any lack of quality.

There you are. Perfect then. :heart:
But I do now....after hearing the NuForces :broken:

If I may speak for Bert, also looking for something else, he is looking
for more power. Or better, more headroom. I have this headroom (4 x 140W
RMS into 8 Ohm), and it brings something that's lacking a 7W 300B.
Note that, having everything rather right around the amps, further
differences between my SS and Bert's LaydyDays are hard to determine at
comparing them side by side (which we did the other day).

More headroom here would also be funny, but not a "must have".

Why do I say the above ? well, because something has creeped into my mind
that the differences between amps are minor, once you have the other stuff
right. The stage doesn't differ, the (micro) information does not, the
character of the sound does hardly (the highs are slightly different, and
what's noticed further is, in our opninion, caused by more headroom in my
amps), differences in timbre and the like just are a hoax (and merely
caused by the source and the speakers), etc. etc.
Or ... my SS and Bert's tubes must sound coincidentally the same, in which
coincidence I don't believe.

Yeah..we had that discussion. If all the playback system is non-plus-ultra, the amp doesn't matter? This is, well I guess, not quite what you mean?

Similar to my reasons of power consumption, are Bert's reasons for tubes
getting end of life, that being the most sneaky phenomenon I personally
wouldn't be able to live with ("could it be caused by too old tubes ?").

When I played on the ORIS/MD3 combi, the tubes sound print somehow made the small setback in the MD's treble acceptable.
With the SWINGs nothing but the best would be acceptable.

Preliminary conclusion of the above is, that *if* "we" would be able to
find a class D amp outperforming (or equalling) what we have now, it would
suit you all. Just for the sole reason amps don't matter much as long as
the theory of operation is correct, *and* you don't overdrive them.
But sadly the point is so far : the class D amps differ so much in theory
of operation, that they DO differ from my amp the least ...

I'm searching. I keep on searching and hope to find an amp which a least have all the qualities the D-amp had and eventual less = more. Might it be a any-class amp. I don't care at all.

If only there would be a huge source of those things around here ...

It's even worse here. Very little to choose among. That is, everything has a distributor, but very litlle is displayed.

Peter

GC

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