Amps? (Off Topic)

by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Sunday, February 11, 2007, 13:24 (6282 days ago) @ GC

And?

Well GC, there's some more to it I'm afraid;
24 hours reading concepts and stuff later, I know now that anybody "just buying a class D" is stupid. Even after listening. Too many things involved that can go wrong ...
For that matter there's 2 or 3 concepts appreciated as good (no, WOW ! and outclassing everything on earth), and certainly your NuForce is not amongst them (nor anything else you'd know about).
Tomorrow I will make some phonecalls in order to find out what actually can gotten hold of.

One important note for understanding :
The principles of a class D amplifier come to nothing more or less as a normal DAC (which btw does not mean it *is* about a DAC). With this I say (and state) : the differences / abnomalies / good things you can perceive from a class D amplifier are of the same magnitude (and influences depending on the concept used) as a DAC.

If your telephone contact did not feel any significant difference between
all the amps he tried, I tend to beleive that he doesn't pocess an
instrument that can show a difference. The speakers or even the ears?

I don't think I was clear on this; the only thing the man on the phone I tried to quote, was this :

Although the Kharma's surely are not bad, for him there is not any indication that they, or any other class D hype amp for that matter, is better than the "old" stuff.

The rest were my subjective thoughts. And those thoughts could well be wrong. Look :

So: If I might use a sort of termology from the photo world I should say
the D-amp shows a sound stage composed of Giga x Tera-pixels which turns
on and off at infinite speed. When they are on, they are on at laser
strength, when their off it is a dark hole in the universe. All nuances in
between are liniearly expressed.
Hence the extreme detailed sound picture.
Hence the extreme combinations of colors.
Hence the extreme contrast.
Hence each pixel can be heard seperately.
Hence the neighbour pixel and it's neighbour pixel can be heard at the
same time.
Hence all pixels can be percepted all at once or non at once and
everything in between.
Hence the, at the one side, extremely saturated soundstage, and at the
other side, drop dead silence when no signal is applied.
An incredible fast materialization of sound and it's emmidiate
disappearence again.
Subjectively low distortion.
The ability to treat the whole freq. spectar the same way.
Like a black box.
Sounding of nothing and still a suffix of sweetness.

I believe that now. I mean, after reading many perspectives like yours by now, I assume they are true. Also, this works the other way around, like reading about : the grainyness of a SS which I can recognize myself, without a reference to something without it (well, Bert's LDD -> highs are slightly different). Note though, that such a reference could only exist with a horn speaker which *also* is part of the (my) reference ... so all is not easy.

If you take my SET it adds, distracts, multiply and cross talks all the
above qualities in a way, that the sound picture show a kind of "Vanilla
Fudge" of everything.

Very good expressed IMO. But, in order not to accuse me of talking in your ways, I do not have this absolute reference so far, so this is about having to replace myself in that situation (which is VERY difficult, but of which I think I can do it).

Now I did not say that there is nothing better than a D-amp.

By now I start to believe it is true that nothing better exist, when using the proper design. That is, by the gratitude of theories I now read, only hoping the ultimate example of it can already be built or bought (we'll see about that tomorrow :dntknw.

My speakers are sort of "warm" sounding. Slightly sweet.

Assuming you mean through the NuForce ... it's the character of the NuForce (just read that several times from different angles). It should be neutral, right ?

Also, my "research" on the class D subject, seems to show that these

amps

live in their own world of "cheap" and DIY areas with a high value for
money reatio, but which clearly to me does *not* mean it might (!) be

good

for me and you in absolute sense.
For example, any itself respecting Audio store does not sell class D
stuff, or it must be hard soldered in the insides of a subwoofer.

Worse,

nobody sells these things overhere (though I must be careful, because
"everybody" might buy from the internet and sell these days, but that's
different from stores doing it).

All that might just be pre-justices. It's rather cheap. It's small. It
hides away easily and don't produce heat.
Any mass product producer would stuff that into their boomy boxes.

As it turns out, it's a bit different;
First of all, to my findings, all the guru's and geeks being the founders of the class D phenomenon, reside in the DIY amp forums. As it seems, this is not about creating better products by it, but merely is about some means of commercial show off (which I do not intent to be negative, at all), and even is about the guys designing the circuits, those by now residing in the chips. IOW, any attempt to call this "cheap" is a plain wrong judgement. However, that the products don't seem to extend their ways farther than these forums, is another matter. By now I am as far that a EUR 700 ready built (stereo) amp outperforms everything what exists for class A or A/B, but which nobody on a DIY forum will do (buy it built), and instead they buy the components for EUR 150 or so.

Looking at the above, there will be no audio store selling stuff at 700 which can be put together in 1 day for 150 (unless your hour tariff is 150 of course), and there's no way such a store will try to get marging of, say, 50 on a 150 sales price, where before this was about 5000 on 15000.
Besides that, if it is already difficult for us lurking the Internet the whole day, what about those who don't ? there's just no market for the things you can buy at DIY Internet places, other than there.
That there's difficulty to judge the difference between the one with the PC speakers, and the one with the Swings, is clear, but once you're into this you'll KNOW the 10% of the persons from different angles, those 10% creating the technology. Not as a hype, but as real technology. Those who eventually created chips of their thoughts, IMO just are the ones to listen to, the least.

Before getting too enthusiast, I recall that 90% of the communities I was referring to, are those listening to MP3 through their PC speakers, and they will use the Tripath concept just because it costs EUR 30 or so. But also, because it's not so much off compared to the real thing.
Eventually the point is that the good stuff costs 10 times as much as the not so good stuff, but it will still only be EUR 300 then.

That no one sells the stuff might be reasoned by not many produces D-amps
in high-end classes???

With 95% chance or so that I'm right : the good stuff just exists since day before yesterday. But also, there is another thing again going on, not familliar to you, but very familiar to me :

This is about chips.
Chips have datasheets.
Chips are -in the end, meaning after a long process of design- very elementary things, which must again be interpreted bu means of the datasheets. This is not(hing) for settled amp producers. This is for someone like me, or a DAC designer for that matter. This is about high frequency emitting stuff (the Nuforce failing that miserably), *that* needing control not part of the datasheets. This is, in this special case, about a high interaction between the power supply and the chip hence overall design.
This is, as I found, about dedicated freelancers being able to make something of it. Btw, this is for DIY people ...

It is really a pitty I couldn't get the Kharma's, because now, so far,

the

status remains that the class D (or "T") come to me as a failure. Just

by

the two experiences to far (which would be the NuForce and the Sonic
T-amp).

... which are failures. Well, that would be too strong, but doing it right implies other products of which at least one exists right now, two more might exist (being better again), and one I can only hope it does (being the best for theories).

Please note that a "failure" as such, might mean the difference between being too clinical - and just right, whereas the first might bring you (GC) the resolution you encountered, plus some blown fuses. :shame:

What, actually, is our problem ?

Alcohol???

Don't make fun here; alcohol often makes things better. It could well be that even with a blown fuse the music sounds right !

More headroom here would also be funny, but not a "must have".

Oh yes. It just might bring you the authority you are looking for. However, not knowing the difference you won't be looking.
Note that "bass authority" can only be judged when not first something else was messing things up.

Yeah..we had that discussion. If all the playback system is
non-plus-ultra, the amp doesn't matter? This is, well I guess, not quite
what you mean?

To be honest, it was;
The source is IMO of magnitudes more importance, were it only for it being magnified by amplification. This, however does not mean an amp can destroy as well ... which (usually) can only be heard through hi-res speakers ...

With the SWINGs nothing but the best would be acceptable.

Right. Exactly the reason why I started my "buy a new amp" project. Being in lack of quality or not. I must be, although I can't hear it yet. Why can't I hear it ? no reference ... not at these levels of quality.

Peter

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