T and D conclusions (Off Topic)

by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Tuesday, April 24, 2007, 11:31 (6211 days ago) @ takman

Hi takman, (waaay toooo loooong)

Please allow me to respond (too).

While I respect all of your opinions, I think we
need to add a little objectivity to the discussion.

Although you placed this in the context of Orphean/Oris, it is not hard to understand that we are as objective as we can be. That is, since the amps are for our own use ...

Awfully harsh comments.

Harsh seems subjective to a mood. But believe me, if someone is just buying such an amp (like you did, like GC did, like Bert did) there is no reason to have a bad mood about it (in advance). But it just didn't work out.

I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that the
Red Wine T amps may not necessarily be a good match with the Orpheans
(because the emphasis of micro dynamics), so perhaps this is one of the
problems you heard.

At least I know that, and you know it too because I responded to that, and you know what that response was ... (if not, check it out :evil.
Also, if you followed the "Crazy Dynamics" subjects a bit, we now *know* it just can be true what you told from theory (like I did myself back then).
Conclusion : even to this aspect we know what to interpret. Well, we try hard anyway.

So far as I can tell on my Oris, I do not hear the "metallic" sound ...

First of all, this is not specific to the RedWine. Note though, that coincidentally the RedWine was -as the only one- directly compared with the "BDCrazyA". I can really really tell you that without this comparison this would not have been the judgement. You can see it easily, because nobody judges it like that ... so how come we did make that judgement at this one afternoon ?

The answer is as simple as useful : because the BDCrazyA (BD30) by pure coincidence is this very fast amplifier just the same, although the principle is completely different from a class T (or D). So, we were able to compare two highspeed amps, one class T and one "normal".

What one tends to like about these speedy amps, is the detail they reveil. True. But be careful here, because you *also* may tend to give priority to that : the more I hear the better it *will* be. Not true.

The latter comes down to what you wrote yourself about too much dynamics, which in the end is an effect of too much detail, or whatever it exactly is that gets the things out of balance. In the end this comes down to a comparison with the fuzzy phenomenon "involvement" or not. But it must be "something" that does or does not "create" that.

Back to the speedy amps ... the T-D amongst eachother all give a certain colouration to the sound. Might it be grainy, grey, cold, they are all similar, and you can just hear it is that what is "causing" the speed.
For me, it sounds digital, which most probably emerges from the coldness. This is personal.

When a D-T is compared to the relatively slow tube amp (I think slow is a wrong expression, and "rounding" might be better), or to a normal class A or A-B amp, comparing is very difficult. The nature of the sound is so much different that actually the only thing which comes to your mind by automation is the, say, crazy detail.
But crazy detail is totally unrelated to involvement, and a 30 year old cassette tape on a Nakamichi Tri Tracer might do better to that aspect.

Btw do note that this involvement becomes (must become) an explicit phenomenon to checkout, once things get so technical correct ...

Now, in an earlier post in this thread I explained how a "normal" sounding synth track turned into a metallic track. So I don't need to repeat that. But the messasge now is : the T-D's compared amongst them wouldn't have shown that (or got me thinking like that), and them compared to a slow amp is too much of apples and oranges. You just won't have that conclusion then.

The BDCrazyA appears to be a strange beast. Somehow it creates air air and air around all, including the details as we know it from the T-D. There is no greyness, no grain, no coldness. No digitial as it IS not digital. Mind what I say here, because the processing of the T-D just is ... (think of the signal riding at a sawtooth wave (like with the D) which looks very digital to me, and where the sawtooth has to be removed again ... all operating in 140MHz or whatever high frequency range.

So again, when listening to each of the T-D's, they do not sound metallic (but grey etc.). They do, however, when compared to the BDCrazyA (which actually was done with the RedWine only).
Really within one second. Believe me.

The last thing I can say about it with some sense is that "we" listen at levels of "pure reality" by now. I mean, for each and every instrument we try to compare it with the real life instrument, and if something is wrong with it, we reject whatever it s what did it. Can you listen like that currently ? (it's allowed to say Yes, although I imply No of course :secret.
To give you an indication : yesterday we (Bert) were -for several hours- working on the filter to reveil timbre (of a voice) the best we could. It can be not there (nice sweet sound, laid back, wrongish, not interesting) and it can be there too much (very interesting, out of balance other instruments, too much twingling of bells, fatigueing). Just a matter of knowing where to be at filter settings. This also, audible within seconds.
Try this with an improper playback means (like a certain version of GC) and you will never get there. Remember, those all digital (software) players which should all sound the same. Audible within a fraction of a second ...

It will be true that the Orphean reveils more than the Oris I think, but note that the above (timbre) plays in lower regions. Also note that it is just these regions where the T-D exaggerate and where -as I see it- dynamics come from. This is IMO just fast rise/fall times of the more powerfull somewhat lower frequencies (maybe 8K), like incurred from the smash on a snare drum. I don't expect that much difference in that area with what you hear.
What could matter though, is the greyness, which occurs in the higher (if not highest) regions. To my ears this causes the colours to go away from cymbals.

Second, I think it would help to put things into context ...

What I now say might be dangerous :
What you actually ask is the for me old-fashioned way of judging : what disturbes least.
I know, not so many months ago I couldn't go differently either, but today it is about "what is the most real". If *then* disturbances are present, this is a knockout. There's no tradeoff.
The T-D's we heard disturb, one way or the other.
My A-B amps do not disturb.
Bert's LadyDays do not disturb.

This is interesting and dangerous by itself. Why ?
The BDCrazyA does not disturb, and shows way more detail than my A-B amps;
Once I *know* about the details, I could get disturbed by my A-B amps not showing them. But I don't think it will come to that, unless you really start to learn about instruments and their details. For now, this is about spitting becoming audible, taking a breath before striking strings, twingles which just weren't there befor, and a mighty interesting staging, separation and cleanness. The opposities of these do not disturb I think.

For me, I do believe my tube amps ...

Here you say it yourself. The matter is though, where this impression of the opposite comes from. Thus, "not glowing ramance". As long as we don't think vintage (yeah, I'm quick), I say : cold. Or too cold anyway.
"Cold" too, is kind of nonsense, because that too comes from something. Too much processing could be a reason, similar to SS doing that in general (compared to tubes).
I'm not a tube guy, as long as SS can do it right. My A-B amps are the most neutral (= cold !) I could find in a years time 15 years ago. What comes from it ? warm sound !
Bert's LadyDay was unbeatable for Bert, so far. It's a "slow" tube amp. Uncontrolled bass and nicely distorted highs they say ...
Did I hear anything wrong from it ? NO!. Not with decently controlled playback. With Foobar ? h*ll yes. The most fuzzy tube amp playback, which you'd just take for granted ...

Today we just will not go for compromises.
The BDCrazyA shows even better controlled bass, reveils details like eternity, and adds super-air as a bonus.

... but from what I've read on the web ...

It doesn't matter all that much what we read in this respect. What to me *does* matter, is that all those reviews s*ck. The reviewers are payed for it, are able to play around with the reviewed stuff, and are biased somehow. I said it before : go through 6moons, and notice that each newly reviewed amp is the best again. Can't be much true, right ?

... makes me feel like the critical comments
are phrased in a way that is somewhat unfair to the makers of the Red Wine
amps.

It was and is not intentional to address any amp maker with a "you make a lousy product" (but for the NuForce of course :heat. Besides that I don't think that in any of the posts (this thread or others) we stated an amp as "bad". But as said, a tiny disturbance is already enough for us not to proceed. Please trust me when I say that when we didn't kind of coincidentally run into the BD30's which were right under our nose, we would NOT have used one of these amps. We would have been clueless, with one option left : the UcD (which we still didn't hear).

Takman, of course it is not nice for you reading about our comparisons like this. But at least there is no way we are biased. I hope in the end you just can appreciate our efforts, which eventually are done for the benefit to all of us BD speaker owners. What if I'd tell you that we already spend more money on the transport to get one of the evaluated amps in time, than the price of a pair of normal BD30's ? that's our hard-earned cash. Spent to share.

:heart:

Peter

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