Some questions about bass integration and XOs (Oris Horns)

by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Thursday, December 20, 2007, 03:16 (5971 days ago) @ Don Reid
edited by unknown, Thursday, December 20, 2007, 03:31

Oh dear ... This is an extraordinary thread ...
My contribution was in the area of 2c anyway, and I'm not sure I can add much to it. But in this special case I have this special urge ...

This morning, my response began with ... no response. Personally I found it too difficult to elaborate on things while
a. I don't know everything about it anyway;
b. I could harm feelings of any normal human being exploiting his newly bought device (especially when on this forum).

What you see happening in this thread, is that GC kind of exactly said what I wanted to say early this morning, I then added to that a tad of a-diplomacy, GC thought "what the h*ck, let's give it all as long as I did not say it myself", Don luckily being on the good side again, next GC acting as the sincere diplomat, Stephan being in the best middle of all, and then Bert ... well, Bert who did not want to give his genuin answers all day thought "maybe now ? " ...

So there you are Rooze, you bought a wrong device. .
But is that so ?

People on this forum generally agree, or if not are very polite and full with diplomacy (ok, I am the only one who should look in the dictionary for that). On the other hand, this all *is* about the best advices, right ?

So Rooze, I don't think you bought a wrong device. But for me it would be too complex to handle. Why ? well, because IMHO Bert is right ...
However, this is all about things being so complex that a 100 pages may be needed to spit it all out, and since today it would end with doubtful conclusions anyway, your miles may vary ...
I'll try to give one example :

Don, this post is connected to yours anyway, so this is for you. And because you did not buy your DEQX yesterday but long ago, and because you exploited it to your best in your situation (which probably just *is* best), together with that you are very capable of defending yourself which you did in advance, here is my reason in brief not to be able to use the DEQX :

First, please, have Bert's response in mind. Generally that applies to me, or maybe to me especially, thinking of my preciously cooked software player, its main goal being outputting Stephan's square waves since they are in the source anyway. So indeed, when they are there, we "need" to hear them;
The last thing we'd want (or I anyway) is that beautiful sines come from it, which will happen with any oversampling. Now :

The first thing which will happen with any DAC that can process more than 24 bits (actually 23 I think) is that squares will be oversampled into sines just because any such DAC ... well ... oversamples. It's just the nature of any DAC being capable of handling 32 bits (dive into sigma/delta if you like). So at this stage, all is destroyed.

Then in digital more things can go wrong than we can ever imagine, but with very much insight and experience we can avoid some (known) anomalies.
The DEQX does a wonderful job I think. That is, if you'd accept an additional A/D stage, and are the coincidental believer of it's D/A being better than whatever it is you had choosen before the DEQX came in. E.g. when my TwinDAC+ is my TwinDAC+, it is so because I choose it for a DAC that suits me. Now why would any random digital device, coincidentally *needing* a D/A stage be, be as good as my before choosen DAC ? Chances are virtually zero, but it could be ...
Of course I don't need to tell anyone that this is not solved by letting the DEQX output analoguely, put an ADC in there, so I can connect my precious DAC again. No ...
Of course this is the same topic as the previous, which ended with "all is destroyed", but now for another reason.

Since all is about the net result, I hear your echo Don : but you could connect it directly to a digital amp and gain there (btw, the Lyngdorf is one).
Well, in that case the problem becomes worse, because now the previous topic applies to my carefully choosen amp as well. And did we not just spent a year or so in search for "the" amplifier ? and weren't that just the digital beasts (though not exactly the digital amp you refer to) and did they not all fail to our (!) ears for one point or the other ? So again no ...

But you can gain on the digital input of the DEQX !!
Oh dear ... (yes, I started this post with this) ...
The DEQX - and this is one of the many pitfalls one can fall in - processes with the number of bits it's fed with. So now there's my preciously chosen CD player, but it outputs in 16 bits only. Oh boy ... So much for 32 bit float.
Now the damage is really done.

Ah, but this can be avoided by using analogue-in. Then it all works again !
Yeah, well, one could state that my dear DAC then can output the squares again, but it's not much useful, right ? the additional A/D stage needed then would also not do good to my sound. And in the end my squares have become sines again anyway ...

With this litte one page out of 100, I tried to give the example of one device which just won't get connected in my system. As I said, it still would be without conclusions. Why ? well, because it *still* could be so that for the net result the sound from it is better. Just because of all the good things that might come from it. So, net.
But mind you, the second 10 pages now just start. These pages would be about active vs. passive crossovers. About impedance influences and what would be better / more natural. And all the elements at the passive side that would destroy but ... and so on and so on.

So there you go Rooze. Another response that does not bring you much more than background data. What applies to the DEQX, not necessarily applies all to your Lyngdorf. But the main part does.
When you use a CD player, or software player you like very much, and that coincidentally outputs beautiful sines (coincidentally because you just never wondered :satisfied, near all *my* reasons not to go such a route, have vanished. Or the other way around, when you listen to much to people in here (including me) and throw out the processor, what would be the need if you liked - and kept such a player anyway ?

In the very end it is about some insight. Insight so one can grasp a bit of knowledge here and there, and then decide for his own situation and best application. Audio is full of knowitalls, while at the same time I myself am very sure that we're just at the beginning of it all.

Peter

Tags:
0