goodsoundclub diy hornspeaker forum (Off Topic)

by angeloitacare, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 03:23 (4141 days ago)

hi bert

i dont know if u know romy the cat, its a guy with a diy horn speaker forum, he is from Boston. I found his site very informative, for who wants to have a look

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/

btw, i asked hime what he thinks abought bms drivers

his answer was very amusing :

“Hm, the BMS drivers? Unfortunately they have very narrow margin of application. The BMS drivers are nice if you build a sound reinforcement system that would be placed in a truck that blasts drams during those gays pride parades. The BMS drivers are good in Jewish weeding when father of the bride invited too many dentists and he wants that everyone at the table #126 hear his toasts. The BMS drivers are good for Ohio audio installations where the system owners use the dB of their playback to slaughter chickens, pigs, horses and visiting libertarians. They are also very useful in demolition landscaping as they make any living subject to fade. Unfortunately the BMS drivers completely are not useful for sound as they pump pressure instead of the content, and it is no surprise why they are being used in today’s White House pressroom. BMS drivers have complete disregard to the tonal aspect of sound reproduction and they are a direct compromise of …anything. Yes, the BMS drivers are great to start at AA.”

Anyhow, prefabs you will be more lucky with BMS, I was not….

regards Angelo

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by angeloitacare, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 03:32 (4141 days ago) @ angeloitacare

forgot to add following comments from romy the cat:


None of the horns are capable to do 220hz up to 20khz. It is direct violation of the nature of the horns as you have fundamentally compromised design. For higher frequency the 220hz is insultingly deep (with all negative consequences). I do not even mention the compromised deafragms and many other factors. In Radiotron is clearly said the horn much not be use across wide frequency range but the audio people keep feeding themselves by illusions… I have no idea why… Regarding the BMS. I had two BMS drivers in 2000-2001. they are very nice made but unfortunately they had absolutely no sound. I mean they had great pressure but have some kind of immunity to tone. I was not able to get from them any color discrimination. They pushed juts a mass of gray pressure that was intolerable. A few weeks got the infamies citrines at AA advertised to each other BMS driver. I posted a reply in there that of course was vandalized.

what would u answer, Bert ?

unfortunately my Orpheans did not arrive, otherwise i could judge better.

regards Angelo

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by GC, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 07:58 (4141 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Angelo

What a "copy and paste" post!

Romy the cat seems to me more an artist of word gymnastics than a good sound entrepreneur.
If he had failed getting good sound out of BMS drivers I just wonder how his own set-up would sound?

The Orphean is nothing less than a dream.

GC

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by Bert @, Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 09:11 (4139 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Angelo,

what would u answer, Bert ?

You should never believe what other people write on the web. Especially among the DIY-ers, most posts are usualy from information gathered elsewhere on the web and almost never from their own experiences. Even if things were from their own experiences, only a few DIY-ers actually know what they are doing...

Also, I do not want to be a part of a discussion that leads to nothing. It will only be worthwhile if this discussion takes place between people who actually have heard the system and besides that, compared it to be able to be objective.

Having discussions about what is possible or even impossible related to theory only is only wasting time. In this audio world there is more than just that.

I have better things to do...

unfortunately my Orpheans did not arrive, otherwise i could judge better.

You should judge yourself and add a good bass system below the Orphean. When all of that is settled then you can write from your own experiences that it is not about the used parts alone that brings the perceived quality, it is how the designer of the system was capable to create something extremely well from a compromised situation (as all audio related stuff is a better or worse compromise).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 11:57 (4141 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Angelo,

I don't think the forum of this Russian gentleman Roman Bessnow is about DIY horn systems. This forum is about him, he, himself, and his hobbies. It's one big blog.
The man must have an IQ of 280, seems to have a fine audio system and is a good fotographer. His move from Russia to the US made him, say, important.
He not only has a typing diploma, he must be a typewriter himself.
He's an artist.
However, having one virtual turntable with 6 fixed arms and a dozen of cartridge heads around ... it's beyond my imagination.
In his age of well 50, he must have few self confidence, but gets some by bashing around.

Just my analysis after being on his "forum" (and elsewhere) for a couple of hours.

I don't think he has real technical insight in things, but operates more from his own findings of reality and a huge experience. I think in many cases those findings are appropriate, but in other cases he is too ignorant to listen to other's findings, or to want to understand the theoretical insight of things. I mean, his expression of not wanting to visit companies you referred to in Japan, because it would be a waste of time anyway ... is just bashing (to you).

All 'n all his expression about the BMS driver, and listening to Bert about this earlier, is true ... when not applied properly in the horn consistently, and with the appropriate filters and some tweaks. Your trying (overthere) to express about the one point of originating of the sound like Bert's horns do ... how could he ever respond to that. Did you see his "speakers" ? I didn't count, but I guess he uses 11 drivers. Per side that is.:stop: And of course he has the special open baffle mono speaker (I guess he has only one of those :clapping: )

If you'd just read how many difficulties he had in getting the things right (and how much he uses friends opinions to get somewhere), you'd know his answers are worthless to you.

Do not be afraid the Orphean won't do what you expect from it. It does, and it does it all. Also I can advise sincerely to buy any of Bert's bass enclosures, and you should go for the "Ultra" versions (i.e. with horn) to do it right at once. Please note that the bass drivers used are especially made (for Bert), and you won't be able to buy such a thing commercially elsewhere.

Just my 2c,
Peter

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by angeloitacare, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 19:33 (4141 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter

i learnd a lot on Romys forum. I bought Bert 's Orpheans blind, meens without hearing,they did not arrive, so i caNot judge with my ears, but i am quit ansious after all i read here in the forum abought them. Of course Romy can only talk abought his own experience with the Bms drivers. Its really not everyones job to make a speaker sound well, i know how difficult this is, as i grown up seeing my father desesperating i dont know how many times , because his speakers didnt sound as they should. I caNot understand, why in the graphic of bert's orpheans the curve of the bms with his horns go til 220hz, if in the official site, with the bms original horns, witch hornmouth is pretty the same big as Bert's Hornmouth, goes only til abought 400 - 450 hz. Also, if one horn really can reproduct such a bandwith as the orpheans accurately, i can judge only after hearing them.
What i can imagine, is that a big mid bass horn, like of the trios, probably would add more body to the sound. If Bert's chassis really are the non plus ultra, i don't know. Its fun to search in the net, see what could be possible, hear everyones opinion, and finally go and try out by my own, till get what i want.

regards Angelo

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 23:06 (4141 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hey Angelo,

i learnd a lot on Romys forum. I bought Bert 's Orpheans blind, meens
without hearing,they did not arrive, so i caNot judge with my ears, but i
am quit ansious after all i read here in the forum abought them. Of course
Romy can only talk abought his own experience with the Bms drivers. Its
really not everyones job to make a speaker sound well, i know how
difficult this is, as i grown up seeing my father desesperating i dont
know how many times , because his speakers didnt sound as they should.

In fact I kind of tried to "defend" your buy because I felt great sympathy with you, my father too effortlessly building his speakers, even from sewer pipes (which is btw rather "official" because of few resonance etc.). I just didn't allow some not-knowing to blow off your precious dreams !

Another kind of story is that I still own all my fathers attempts of speakers, and as I told Bert (ask him !) he has been the only one so far to superceed my own findings about speakers, which includes my father's which by now really are from a far past universe. :wacko:
My father played in an orchestra himself, and was a teacher at the conservatorium, and his aim was perfection and nothing but that. I have this as a "virtue" from him ... :dancing:
I'd really like to promise you that if the Orphean doesn't perform as how you expected, I'm personally going to help you (somehow :thankyou:).

I caNot understand, why in the graphic of bert's orpheans the curve of the
bms with his horns go til 220hz, if in the official site, with the bms
original horns, witch hornmouth is pretty the same big as Bert's
Hornmouth, goes only til abought 400 - 450 hz. Also, if one horn really
can reproduct such a bandwith as the orpheans accurately, i can judge only
after hearing them.

I think you have an important point here;
At one stage I really found things wrong, but as I told Bert : I won't go measuring (which I just can) because I trust what you do, and something must be wrong. And it was ...
From what I'm hearing now, there's not any necessity to distrust anything, and all sounds as coherent as should be.

What i can imagine, is that a big mid bass horn, like of the trios,
probably would add more body to the sound. If Bert's chassis really are
the non plus ultra, i don't know.

Okay, be careful here !
Again, Bert knows that after a first attempt of calibrating all in my room, I was talking about things like "fast moving waves without pressure". This, possibly because of the psychological thing of knowing about the excelleration of air (waves) because of the small mouth. Might you experience something like this, just shout that something must be wrong. Bert has the experience (for sure by means of "aNoying-me"), and he's just able to know what's wrong. How difficult that is from a distance ... I don't know. Just trust it for now.

Regards,
Peter

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by Don Reid, Rural Northwest Georgia, USA, Monday, September 18, 2006, 04:58 (4140 days ago) @ angeloitacare

I don't know if you know Romy the Cat.<<

Hey Y'all,

I am familiar with the vicious drivel of Romy the Cat from having encountered it on other forums such as the High Efficiency Speaker Asylum during the last couple of years.

Speaking in my official capacity as a brain damaged rapid cycling manic depressive with a history of paranoid delusions and psychotic episodes (Other than these trivial foibles I am as normal as you or me and probably more so.)I can easily identify Romy the Cat as the human equivalent of a fear biting dog. I have encountered several of his ilk in the various residential care facilities for nutcases I have graced with my presence.

Just as human beings are much more complex than dogs so are their pathologies. At this point I would typically wax scientific and begin peppering my text with appropriate Latin words, but my ten month old Labrador Retriever puppy, Suzie Q. (Thank you CCR.)chewed my beautiful new, burgundy colored, leather bound copy of DSM IV into a sodden mess, so I find myself forced to rely on layman's language and common terms.

Romy the Cat is an envy biter. Envy biters are almost entirely, over 96%, male. A study of 407 male envy biter completed by professors Johnson, Johnson and Johnson at BYU in 1978 revealeed that when fully erect the extreme phallus length for any member of the group was 10.4775 CM (4.125 inches). The median phallus length for the entire group of 407 envy biters was 8.0962 CM (3.1875 inches). These shortcomings cause them such horrible feelings of inadequacy that they lash out at everyone around them. They are especially prone to insult and ridicule men who engage in incredibly macho pursuits such as riding bulls, flying jet fighters, designing and building speakers or driving formula 1 cars.

As I mentioned before envy biters are very easy to spot despite the fact that many mentally ill people are verbally abusive. The envy biters are the only ones who absolutely always wear their blue jeans in the showers.

Bye,
Don Reid

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Monday, September 18, 2006, 09:11 (4140 days ago) @ Don Reid

Keep it nice while I am gone for the weekend!

:biglol: :biglol: :biglol:


Hi Don,

I must say, for someone with sawed off fingers you have a very amusing style of typing. Or writing.

... in 1978 revealeed that when fully erect the
extreme phallus length for any member of the group was 10.4775 CM (4.125
inches).

a. I rather work in cm then.
b. The most envy biters probably live in the US or the UK; I certainly would be one, once I had to operate in inches.
c. I don't record lengths, so I really wouldn't know 1978 figures.

A study of 407 male envy biter completed by professors Johnson,
Johnson and Johnson at BYU ...

Would you know, by accident (of whatever kind) where to start measuring ? Was it described in the study ? And was it double blind ABX measuring ?
I think I know where to stop, but where to start is another thing. To be on the safe side I always start at my toes, but looking at the outcome of the study that can't be right. Me alone would cause the total length of the group, doubling the average.

Thanks,
Peter

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by angeloitacare, Monday, September 18, 2006, 18:31 (4140 days ago) @ Don Reid

Hi Don

yesterday i did read your post abought A DEQX PDC 2.6. I bought a pair of Orpheans from bert. I use a klipschorn replica with altec 416-8b, Do u think the DEQX could give a substantial improove of my speakers ? My Klipschorn sounds very dry and fast, but goes only to abought 40 - 50 hz.

regards Angelo

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by Don Reid, Rural Northwest Georgia, USA, Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 02:30 (4138 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Don

yesterday i did read your post abought A DEQX PDC 2.6. I bought a pair of
Orpheans from bert. I use a klipschorn replica with altec 416-8b, Do u
think the DEQX could give a substantial improove of my speakers ? My
Klipschorn sounds very dry and fast, but goes only to abought 40 - 50
hz.

regards Angelo

Hi Angelo,

Nice to hear from you. I do use the DEQX with Oris 150/AER MD3s and the bass bins of Klipschorns, and I am very very pleased with the arrangment. One great advantage is that the DEQX allows time alignment between the physically separated horns of less than 0.00001 seconds. I also like very high crossover slopes free of any ringing made possible by the DEQX. I use a 96 dB/octave low pass and 78dB/octave high pass.

Other subjects tro consider are:
1. How good a replica is the replica of the K'Horns?
2. Have you opened the inspection plate on the bass bins to confirm the make, model and condition of the woofers?
3. K'horn bass horns work best when the room, and especially the corners in which they are placed, are built as solidly as a dungeon cell in Warwick Castle. Less than
solid construction will make them sound lean, weak and lacking in lower frequencies.

I love the DEQX. It is a wonderful device.; I plan to write a post about it very soon. Please note that the Magico Ultimate 5 way ( five perfectionist custom aluminum horns with highly modified ALE drivers and a wimpy woofer) which sells for $229,000.00 US per pair plus crossovers (several pairs already sold) comes in two versions. One version uses a custom dedicated crossover of perfectionist design, parts quality and construction. The other uses the DEQX. According to Mr. Robert Harley, subjective audio reviewer of decades experience, author of the last two audio books I bought, longtime SET enthusiast and one with whom I have corresponded the DEQX version sounds much more lifelike, images better, and while it might sacrifice a tiny, tiny bit of transparency it much much more than makes up for this with improvements in a multitude other areas.

Bye,
Don Reid

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by angeloitacare, Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 04:04 (4138 days ago) @ Don Reid

Hi Don

my woofers are original 416's.. as far as i know, the original klipsch-woofers sounds best in the cornerhorn. well, this DEQX stands then on my wishes list too....us$3000,00 is good money, but it seems its worth it.
this device seems to make it possible to avoid using a subbass, as i was intend to buy, as the cornerhorns do not go deep. i think with my coming orpheans, i'll come far a step closer to audio nirwana.

angelo

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by Don Reid, Rural Northwest Georgia, USA, Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 15:24 (4138 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Don

my woofers are original 416's.. as far as i know, the original
klipsch-woofers sounds best in the cornerhorn. well, this DEQX stands then
on my wishes list too....us$3000,00 is good money,<<

Hi Angelo,

I just bought my second DEQX PDC 2.6 to use in addition to my first to add subwoofers to a system with which I'm playing around. It's a two year old used demo unit. I bought it off Audiogon for $1,500.00. You might watch for a deal of that sort..

Don Reid

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by angeloitacare, Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 17:25 (4138 days ago) @ Don Reid

hi Don

well, i will search may i find a deqx used.
i was also looking to add a sub on my system. i liked the aura 1808, as romy mentioned, but also find out this one : www.acoupower.com , already heard abought these ? i wrout them , but did not get any answer. romy speaks abought the vitavox ak151. do u have any experience with that ? can it bring any improvement compared with the altec's ? honestly saying, i am not amazed at all abought the magico horns. romy describes with knowledge the lacks of this system. and price they are talking abought is just ridiculous. what i like most, are the tractrix 150hz horns, in combo with a sub and a mid high tractrix horn. also i like a lot the wooden horns he uses, and similar sierra brooks. i ' l try do make them here in brazil, in one ore two blocks of wood.

Angelo

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by Don Reid, Rural Northwest Georgia, USA, Thursday, September 21, 2006, 00:59 (4138 days ago) @ angeloitacare

hi Don

well, i will search may i find a deqx used.
i was also looking to add a sub on my system. i liked the aura 1808, as
romy mentioned, but also find out this one : www.acoupower.com , already
heard abought these ? i wrout them , but did not get any answer. romy
speaks abought the vitavox ak151. do u have any experience with that ? can
it bring any improvement compared with the altec's ? honestly saying, i am
not amazed at all abought the magico horns. romy describes with knowledge
the lacks of this system. and price they are talking abought is just
ridiculous. what i like most, are the tractrix 150hz horns, in combo with
a sub and a mid high tractrix horn. also i like a lot the wooden horns he
uses, and similar sierra brooks. i ' l try do make them here in brazil, in
one ore two blocks of wood.

Angelo

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by angeloitacare, Thursday, September 21, 2006, 01:07 (4137 days ago) @ Don Reid

it seems something got wrong while posting your answer.

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