Swing it out ! (Part-1) (Swing)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 16:20 (6403 days ago)

Hi all,

With a silent tribute to GC ... :whistle: (oh for two reasons :yes: ).

The past few weeks I was so lucky to have Bert's Swings to be "stored" in my house.
[image]

And as I understand Bert still :secret: has to finish this first production pair for a large deal of the veneer part ... which gives me another week before he again has his own storage space.

Well, I come from a system with Infinity Renaissance 90's which really didn't need any improvement.
That's what I thought. :arrogant:

What, I think, most of us don't realize is that most of our time we are working on systems that have the least disturbing things in them as possible. Well, let's say I'm good at that, and for the so maniest time I thought I was there. This by itself must be wrong of course ...

At the time I met Bert he was showing off with the Oris horns (in Swing enclosure), which I found disturbing in some areas just as well. All was great of course, but it wasn't my thing (or swing).
Talking about this with Bert was great, and I think he has a very good drive in wanting to apply what you want (if what you want is, say, decent :cool: ).

In the mean time I developed the first version of my XXHighEnd software player, just for the sole reason of the Foobars and the like "disturbed" me too, in certain areas. This was a wrong thing to do ...
While in two huge sessions Bert and I judged several software players at my house, it became clear that the player clearly unveiling the most detail, also sounded the worst. By far.
So all 'n all this made Bert decide to move his warehouse contents to my living room; His pair of Swings with the Orphean.

We needed some 4 stages to get out of "something's wrong" situations, beginning with my own amps then Bert's own (valve) amps, adjusting filters, correcting impedance problems, and in the end ending up with my own (solid state) amps again, Bert en passent partially making a new filter to match the impedance better with my own amps, and now ... well, now I have quite another perception of music from the living room !

Now my habit of eliminating disturbing things (like rough highs etc.) changed into a far more natural habit of trying to hear which instruments don't sound like they should. I can tell you, this is quite another experience ! Wow.
:biglol: I am now really in the stage of listening to reality ! :biglol:

There are some warnings too ... :secret:
I think it is good to know that lately I work from a kind of stupid basis : procucing the waves from the CD (so yes, I'm into digital only for now) as 1:1 as possible from the speaker. This means I don't listen with trying to hear the best emotion, depth of stage or all thee other secrets with the audio experience ... I just try to copy the waves ...
Once that's properly done you are "stuck" with the finest experience of all. Just my theory (working out so far !).

This will probably mean that you need a good non oversampling DAC, that your boxed CD player won't do, and that you can't even use Foobar etc. The only thing I want to say with it is that when you don't have the experience from a speaker like this you're not lost. I know exactly what is to be done to get things right. And once Bert has his Swings back and is able to listen himself again, he will be able to copy my settings and eventually he will amend things in the "ultimate jukebox guide".

To be on some safe side, there's one other thing to tell;
By kind of coincidence, just because I have them, currently I am using my solid state oversized amps (4x110W RMS into 8 Ohms);
It is still to be worked out properly, but it looks like the huge oversizing does good to the enormeously sensitive speakers. It's very clear to me that any bass string (etc.) hits the belly per wave (say 50Hz), even so much that it becomes unary. The highs are more profound just as well, and in the end this will be about better control, I think.
For now I have the conclusion that possibly it is not "legit" to use a valve amp in any proper setup (like Single Ended), just because of a tad too few control (or whatever it is that's lacking then).
I say this because my 15 year old ss amp just shows all the reality there is, and if there was one aera to go wrong with ss it would be cymbals and the like. But it's not. And strangely it needs the Orphean to show it off.
There's just more to it.

(note that the 7Watt 300B SE valve amp of Bert really is sufficient to fill my 12x8x3m room LOUDLY).

Continued in Part-2.

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 16:23 (6403 days ago) @ PeterSt.

(Part-2)

To slowly come to an end, yesterday I first spend several hours to select a high end store where they should have the most proper amps for my likings, and then I spend the afternoon to visit one. Note that, no matter the above, I now have the stupid theory that the amps must be the best as well, and my current AB (50W A) class amps can't be it. Well, here's another warning : forget about going to a shop and listening to amps;
No matter the reputation of the shop, no matter how expensive the amps, no matter how expensive the speakers and no matter how many were carried in the listening room (I'm still sweating of carrying them) ... once you are used listening to something like the Swing, it is IMPOSSIBLE to "look through" the anomalies of all commercially available speakers. Anyway, I can't. It really comes to "not being real" as a complete disturbance.
I think I embarressed the guy by asking him to throw his $$.$$$ speakers out of the window (so that we wouldn't have to carry those back to where they came from).

Moral : you can only like the theories (or looks :cool: ) of an amp, carry it home and try. Then STILL it will be difficult, knowing what Bert did to get all really right. So that's needed too with your borrowed amp.

Okay. Last thing. The Swing is called the Swing because it can swing;

[image]
[image]

You just push it and there it goes. Now note the convenience of this !
I pushed it a little here, but it can go from near horizontally left to near horizontally right. With this you can change the stage drastically without actually moving the speakers. The stage isn’t only changed from more narrow to more wide, but also from lower to higher in the room. A most convenient tweak !

Thank you Bert !
(and GC :clapping:)

Peter

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by GC, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 17:23 (6403 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter

How nice it is to read one of the first, if not the first, mini review of the SWING's:wink:

Your findings seems very true to me. You poses other sources than I have had the chance to, and it is nice to hear the SWING's just responds.

I was happy to see Berts SWING in you listening room. Then I know Bert is finshing mine.
I took two years+ to reach the final goal and every minut spent has been worthwhile. The result speaks for it self.:yes:

Now I hope Bert will have aboundance of succes selling this incredible speaker system. He deserves it and we "buyers" deserves it.

It is the first system that responds to all my wishes.:heart:

GC

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 18:09 (6403 days ago) @ GC
edited by unknown, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 18:20

Hi GC,

Your post really makes me smile :yes: although I feel a bit embarrassed too. :blush: I mean, it's not completely fair to be the first tasting this wonderful product. However, the product deserves it. It's just freaking amazing !

I was happy to see Berts SWING in you listening room. Then I know Bert is
finshing mine.

:lol: Well, it really *is* true. Also, I know what a mental hard time Bert had to again spend his precious time to something else than your creation. But is was always for the good cause. And I obviously was the most happy to serve as a second opinion, or the proof that in another environment the Swing just makes YOUR day. Haha.

How nice it is to read one of the first, if not the first, mini
review of the SWING's:wink:

The stupid thing is, there's hardly anything to tell once you can start expressing things like "real sound", or "real music".
For now I will add another phenomenon, which may be subjective :
With the Swing, and when you close your eyes, the music is just in your head, like with a headphone but now WITH vibes. With eyes open this just doesn't work (for me). Anyway, also with eyes open, there's no "border" or "plate" anymore where the depth of the stage sits. Edit : This will be room dependant I think, and the more reflections you have, the better it is. This phenomenon by itself is just one thing you MUST keep in mind. I mean, as long as your are bothered by reflections or standing waves, you need to start tweaking everything but the room itself. For that matter listening at Bert's place is quite another experience (where the stage *is* at some plate in the distance). This could be a matter of taste though.

Yeah, the waiting sure is worth while !

Peter

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by GC, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 18:49 (6403 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter

Your post really makes me smile :yes:

Smiling:smile: Not laughing?:lol:


It's just freaking

amazing !

Yes it really is!


Also, I know what a mental hard time Bert

had to again spend his precious time to something else than your creation.
But is was always for the good cause. And I obviously was the most happy
to serve as a second opinion, or the proof that in another environment the
Swing just makes YOUR day. Haha.

Yes Peter. Bert spent days and nights developing this fantastic system. Whenever I was visiting him, we spent days experimenting, modifying and tweaking.
Comming back home again, I normally phoned him to ask if the mod's still made him happy, but many times he already had moved further and improved.
However the biggest improvement was to replace the AER's with the modified and correctly filtered BMS driver. I did not have any share in Berts choice of driver. The only thing I did was to suggest a completely different filter than Berts. Listening to my own suggestions i became very embarrased:blush:
Berts filter were far better than mine. Ha ha...:grin:


The stupid thing is, there's hardly anything to tell once you can start
expressing things like "real sound", or "real music".
For now I will add another phenomenon, which may be subjective :
With the Swing, and when you close your eyes, the music is just in your
head, like with a headphone but now WITH vibes. With eyes open this just
doesn't work (for me). Anyway, also with eyes open, there's no "border" or
"plate" anymore where the depth of the stage sits. Edit : This will
be room dependant I think, and the more reflections you have, the better
it is. This phenomenon by itself is just one thing you MUST keep in mind.
I mean, as long as your are bothered by reflections or standing waves, you
need to start tweaking everything but the room itself. For that matter
listening at Bert's place is quite another experience (where the stage
*is* at some plate in the distance). This could be a matter of taste
though.

I have a listening room of 9x10x3 m's. Almost as big as yours. My listening distance is about 6 meters!
So I assume I can expect something similar as your learnings.

Yeah, the waiting sure is worth while !

Indeed it is:yes:

GC

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 19:45 (6403 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

Your post really makes me smile :yes:


Smiling:smile: Not laughing?:lol:

Actually I was really laughing out loud. Not sure why. Doesn't happen every day !

Yes Peter. Bert spent days and nights developing this fantastic system.

If that includes the times he left at 4:30 am from my place, yes.:sleepy:

I have a listening room of 9x10x3 m's. Almost as big as yours. My
listening distance is about 6 meters!

Aha ! so NOW I know why Bert so resolutely moved my listening place exactly 6 meters from the Swings !!
Well, thinking that's true, now you know how dedicated he is !

Comming back home again, I normally phoned him to ask if the mod's still
made him happy, but many times he already had moved further and improved.

Of course this depends a bit on your way of travel. :dancing:

Another small clue :
I selected the non oversampling DAC because of it's 1:1 passing square waves (when you dive into this ... an oversampling DAC makes pure sinuses of that at the higher frequencies). Well, this really comes alive through the Orpheans ! Synths now do what they're supposed to to, and rolling thunders become really really scary (compare with a surf wave).
Oh, with vinyl that will break your needles. :lol:

Man, I have well over 1000 CDs to go over this week. :scared:

Peter

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by angeloitacare, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 20:24 (6403 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter

u folks seem very amazed abought your baby's. They look really nice.
what i am curious abought, is the horn in front of the bass. What is the difference, compared without it in front of the woofer ? does this bass have real sub bass, meens til 25, 30hz ?

angelo

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Sunday, September 17, 2006, 23:24 (6403 days ago) @ angeloitacare
edited by unknown, Monday, September 18, 2006, 09:20

Hi Angelo,


u folks seem very amazed abought your baby's. They look really nice.
what i am curious abought, is the horn in front of the bass. What is the
difference, compared without it in front of the woofer ? does this bass
have real sub bass, meens til 25, 30hz ?

angelo

Hard to explain, easy to hear !
I'm from the leage "have a subwoofer !". In fact, "have two !".

Okay, so I say sub-bass is below 25Hz, just because I was used to 27Hz. Better to say is : sub-bass is weird, uncommon and not really music-like, BUT, is in many recordings ! (maybe because the recorder doesn't even know ?).

In the area of sub-25 Hz the sound becomes "wind". Well, between 18-25 Hz something is audible, but mainly -and becaues of its force- it becomes wind. By itself a great experience, like the third song on Zappa's "The Yellow Shark", but not really necessary once normal bass is allright ...

This "allright" is the crux;
My before 27Hz is 27Hz allright, but somehow isn't present straight enough or so. Without control ... without the individual vibes. Not fast enough.
With Bert's very light weight woofers the vibes come through allright. And the overall effect is that I better switch off my subs because they makes things fuzzy only.

Note that the latter is just because they jump in at a too high frequency (40Hz), and without measuring I'd say it should be 22-24Hz.
Bert's drivers go as low as 30Hz officially, but that would be anechoic :confused: (open air, outdoors), and what I feel without measuring is that it could be 24 or so.

Peter

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by angeloitacare, Monday, September 18, 2006, 00:18 (6403 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter

thanks for your explications. I will wait now my horns arrive , and in the meentime continue to have fun in the net. What i most like at Romy's speakers are the wooden horns. I hope i will be able to make something similar.

Angelo

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by GC, Monday, September 18, 2006, 10:38 (6402 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Peter

u folks seem very amazed abought your baby's. They look really nice.
what i am curious abought, is the horn in front of the bass. What is the
difference, compared without it in front of the woofer ? does this bass
have real sub bass, meens til 25, 30hz ?

angelo

Hi Angelo


The SWINGs reproduce the lows better than any other speaker that I have heard.

The SWING incorporate a short (d = 80 cm) horn in order to provide the same sound character from the bass at the x-over frequency as is found in the Orpheans. At the same time the horn adds speed to the bass at this frequency range. The horn amplifies a little at the 200-400 Hz region, but this is liniarlized by the build in filter.
Hence the bass merges perfectly with the sound of the Orpheans. Your hear "one" sound source with no specific "split-up" sound character as found in most multiway speakers.

Further to the above Bert has laid enormous effort into getting this SWING bass system sound so good as it does.
He shaped the cabinet in a way that shows almost no parallel walls in order to avoid standing waves inside the cabinet. He incorporates a cellular structure of uneven sized damped chambers to cancel backward directed energy and to avoid such energy (distortion) to be transferred to the listener through the bass drivers diaphragm.
Bert also showed special attention to the chosen materials itself. By choosing a very light weighted wood composite the cabinet is allowed to vibrate a little while playing. As the chosen wood express very nice sounding harmonics it contributes to the overall musicality of the system. You may compare it to how most acoustical music instruments are made lightweighted in order to add or support harmonics to the basic sound.
I have heard very few speakers, where the aim was to ground the vibrations of the cabinets by choice of heavy and thick materials, that were able to express the inner soul of the music. Most of them sounded extremely dull.
Then Bert also showed attention to the overall size of the cabinet. By choosing 2 bass drivers in a push-push-pull-pull configuration (some call this "Isobaric" and some "Compound") the cabinet shows only half the size compared to the use of only one bass driver. Hence the remains of distorted sound inside the cabinet, which travels through the diaphragms, is dampened another 6 dB.

Summarised I may say that the SWING bass system excels and let the music slip out.

Talking about real sub-bass from speaker systems it is a general misunderstanding that a the enclosured basses should show linearity down to say 20 Hz.
Any listening room will amplify the bass from 200 Hz and down. So in order to have the bass linearity just right, Bert has mirrored the mentioned amplification in the roll off of the enclosured basses by selection of cabinet size, low Q bass reflex ports, inner cabinet air Q and the bass driver itself.

So can the SWING reach the sub lows. You bet they can. And they do that showing the same airy-ness as the highs.

I am sure that Bert could add much more to the above topic as he is the guy who figured this magic speaker system out.

GC

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Monday, September 18, 2006, 13:30 (6402 days ago) @ GC

I'd like to add a thing, which amazed me a bit, although it could just be me and my lack of broader experience;

What I am used to no matter what occasion (hence system) is that listening with your ear right next to a woofer, there is just some low sounds booming a bit. Listening with the mid/high part disconnected, this sounds like cutoff sound, just presenting the lowest frequencies.
Not with the BD15 and the horn ...

Somehow here is just music, and although cut obviously, it's not low sounds only, it's instruments as well. Now, with my ear in the bass horn there's something to judge. There's the vibrations of the snare etc. ...

Of course when listening to e.g. the Swing, that sounds logic; when you hear the vibrations of a snare at the listening position, you should hear them with your ear in the woofer just the same. Now *this* is not true ...
Vibrations of a snare etc. often go along with harmonics, and those harmonics will be audible as just similar vibrations through the mid part of the speaker. This is fake ! and it's explored by the vibration of the fundamental tone as how e.g. the Swing expresses. The difference ? an INSTRUMENT !

A cello vibes as a cello with the colour of a cello.
Oh, I'd better make "contra bass" of that. :fool:

Peter

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by angeloitacare, Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 01:23 (6402 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC

would really like to hear this speaker. who know's , one day.
at least, my orpheans will arrive soon....

Angelo

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Swing it out ! (Part-2)

by GC, Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 06:30 (6401 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi GC

would really like to hear this speaker. who know's , one day.
at least, my orpheans will arrive soon....

Angelo


Hi Angelo

The Orpheans will serve you well. I am sure:wink:

GC

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Swing it out ! (Part-1)

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Wednesday, October 18, 2006, 22:07 (6372 days ago) @ PeterSt.

I now recall a not so obvious phenomenon, the Swing with its double bass driver will throw at you :

Audible chords of a bass guitar (like in Roger Waters, Flickering Flame, #10-Towers of Faith).
For those who can't hear bass chords anywhere : this is the 4-part throuhgout the song repeating (chord) strokes.
A more "normal" speaker will show just combined bass tones.

Note that I do not mean that the attacks of individual strings are audible, but that you can hear 3 individual strings singing (which may be 4 :wacko: ).

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