Dipole with Oris horns ? (Oris Horns)

by MichaelW @, Sunday, September 24, 2006, 15:01 (4138 days ago)

Hi guys.
After reading and learning a lot from this forum and berts explanations for quite a while, it´s now time to write my first posting.
Im 26 years old, living in Dortmund (germany) and would call myself a DIY maniac (turntables, tonearms, speakers, furniture…)
Inspired by Berts fabulous speakers, I decided to build my own “poor students” hornsystem.
A Fostex FE206 working in a 60cm tractrixhorn supported by a Fostex FT17H tweeter and Beyma 15LX60 bassspeakers in vented enclosers. I´m quite pleased with the sound at this time (in future I probably would like to upgrade to an AER speaker, but not yet), but I´m wondering if I should go for another Bass solution.
In the past I heard the Beymas as dipoles (in a very small/non existing open baffle) with my fullrange-backloaded horns, cutoff at about 40-50 Hz.
I like the bass of a dipole a lot, but will it work with my frontloaded horns ? I´ll surely have to “equalize” the Beymas up to 200Hz. How could this be done ? Active equalizing equipement ? The current system has 4 Outputs on the pre: two go to my tubeamp and than to the fostex, the other two feed active crossovers and then diy chipamps (LM4750 parallelled).
A PLLXO probably won´t work with this setup, I guess.
Any suggestions ?
Best regards, Michael
[image]

Tags:
0

Avatar

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by Bert @, Sunday, September 24, 2006, 16:03 (4138 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

After reading and learning a lot from this forum and berts explanations for quite a while, it´s now time to write my first posting.

Welcome to the club!

I like the bass of a dipole a lot, but will it work with my frontloaded horns ?

I can tell you this soon as I am planning to experiment with the new Oris 250 horns in the Quasar MkII system. I already suggested to have an opening of 242mm so that the horn can be added later. The available drawings for this panel can be found here:

http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/index.php?id=10292

A PLLXO probably won´t work with this setup, I guess. Any suggestions ?

A PLLXO in combination with a passive filter shoud be possible to make it work. I am doing somthing similar with the Quasar and that works pretty well.

My solutions are only based on the panel involved though (drivers used and panel dimensions), I can't be of much help on other situations/solutions. In that case it would be more easy to have a Behringer Ultracurve or something similar to correct the bass (and only the bass!).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by JohnK @, Sunday, September 24, 2006, 16:04 (4138 days ago) @ MichaelW

Nice system, my oris uses a 150 with 15in on a OB so is dipole has very good bass to arround 40hz. see the picture is in my post below about oris horn mounts.

Tags:
0

placing pllxo

by MichaelW @, Sunday, September 24, 2006, 18:10 (4138 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Bert, Hi Jay.
Thanks for your answers.
I decided to try a first testsetup(in the next days), only using a 1. order pllxo to equalize the 6db basslag.
A lowpass cutting above 30Hz with 6db will be my first try.
(5K resistor and 1u capacitor)
It doesn´t make a difference if I put the PLLXO between pre and active-crossover or between active crossover and amp, does it ?
Michael

Tags:
0

Avatar

placing pllxo

by Bert @, Sunday, September 24, 2006, 22:51 (4138 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

It doesn´t make a difference if I put the PLLXO between pre and active-crossover or between active crossover and amp, does it ?

Yes, it can make a difference. I do not know how you have connected everything together in your setup but some things come to mind. It will only work if your pre-amplifier has separated buffered outputs, having only one output connected to both the amplifiers/filters per channel then this will filter both the mid-high frequencies.

Even if you use an EQ filter (ie baffle step correction using a capacitor with resistor in series) connected in parallel with the output of the pre-amplifier then you will EQ the bass + the mid-high frequencies.

To be sure for proper operation, connect the 6dB filter or correction after the active filter for the bass. Only if these are true active filters! If these filters are based on passive components than these might disturb what you want to achieve due to impedance issues.

Note that the output impedance of the active filter (or pre-amplifier) has to be at least 10 times lower than the resistor you want to use for the filter.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Tags:
0

placing pllxo

by MichaelW @, Monday, September 25, 2006, 17:41 (4137 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,
thank you for the detailed reply.
The preamp has 4 outputs (2r 2l, it´s a SAC beta), this should work.
But im not sure if the crossovers are, what you call "real active".
I´ll ask a friend of mine to look at those crossovers, who knows electronics a lot better than me (I´m stupid in those things).
Is a crossover "real active", since it has active electronic parts and not only passive parts like a pllxo an passive crossovers ?
I thought my crossover is active, cause it has a 12V dc input.
It is able gain -12 - +6db. As I understood, there seem to be mainly 4 R-C filters (passive) and some kind of buffer to not influence the impedance. :blush:
Michael

Tags:
0

Avatar

placing pllxo

by Bert @, Monday, September 25, 2006, 17:55 (4137 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

The preamp has 4 outputs (2r 2l, it´s a SAC beta), this should work.

Not always but there is a way to find this out. If you would shortcut one output do you then still hear music from the other output? If not then both outputs are internally connected in parallel.

I thought my crossover is active, cause it has a 12V dc input.

Then these are active filters. Best place will be close to the amplifier - or active filter if the pre actually does have two separated outputs for each channel.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Tags:
0

placing pllxo

by MichaelW @, Monday, September 25, 2006, 19:07 (4137 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Michael,

Not always but there is a way to find this out. If you would shortcut one
output do you then still hear music from the other output? If not then
both outputs are internally connected in parallel.

Ah, now I understand, never thought about this...:blush:


Then these are active filters. Best place will be close to the amplifier -
or active filter if the pre actually does have two separated outputs for
each channel.

Ciao,

Bert

O.k. thank you.
I´ll try this hopefully in the next few days and report, if it works.
Michael

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by jdunham @, Friday, September 29, 2006, 16:14 (4133 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

I like the bass of a dipole a lot, but will it work with my frontloaded
horns ?

Actually there are some good (psycho-acoustic) reasons why front horns and dipoles are a very good combination. This is due to the reflection characteristics of different frequencies on the listening room.

I have been using my own Oris 200/dipole system for a few years now, and am very pleased with the results. See Bert's showroom for a picture here http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d146.html

I´ll surely have to “equalize” the Beymas up to 200Hz. How could
this be done ?

You will need more gain as in your current set-up, but actually it sounds like you could use this any as a first step.

I use a Behringer CX2310 cross-over just for the bass cross-over on mine. It uses 4th order slopes, and I can vary the frequency, phase, and level, so it gives me good control. Oh yes, and it is very cheap, and surpringly good!

A PLLXO probably won´t work with this setup, I guess.

You could try one, they are fine up to 2nd or maybe 3rd order slopes, but not beyond. I used Bert's original PLLXO in my set-up at first. But with my set-up, it allowed too much of the mid frequencies into the mix. The Marchand XR46 is an option where its passive 4th order, using inductors. They are supposed to be good but I've not tried one.

Good luck with your set-up!

Regards,

Jonathan

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by MichaelW @, Friday, September 29, 2006, 19:57 (4133 days ago) @ jdunham

Hi Jonathan,
thanks for sharing your impressions.
I´m already crossing over with an active 4th order slope (24dB) @200Hz, I only wanted to equalize the basslag of a dipole with a 6db (1.order) pllxo lowpass. Cutting everything over 30 Hz with 6dB should work.
This will do fine for a test, but lateron I want to do this with a active setuop, to.
There a some things I want to change with the bassetup, but I haven´t found time yet.
I also suspect the chipamps to have to little control, for that reason I just ordere a Behringer A500 Amp.
Thanks for all your tips.
Michael

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by jdunham @, Friday, September 29, 2006, 22:20 (4133 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

only wanted to equalize the basslag of a dipole with a 6db (1.order) pllxo
lowpass.

Do mean the dpiloe roll-off due to cancellation effect?

If so, I would see how they perform first in your room at the desired position. Mine only roll-off 2db per octave from around 80hz downwards. You may have noticed that I've positioned mine at an angle, and this creates a corner loaded dipole, and these do have less roll-off than a front facing dpiole.

I also suspect the chipamps to have to little control, for that reason I
just ordere a Behringer A500 Amp.

I probably don't use much of my power (600W per side!), but the power supply does produce a lot of current, so I guess keeps the drivers under control.

Regards,

Jonathan

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by MichaelW @, Friday, September 29, 2006, 20:03 (4133 days ago) @ jdunham

One more question:
Are you using four 18'' or 15'' drivers ?
I guess, my two Bema 15LX60 wil be to less for keeping up with the horns quite well.
They can play loud enough in my 40m² linvingromm, that´s no problem.
But I to keep up with the dynamics, I´m sure there would better be four of them.
One more hard try to explain my girlfriend, why I just have to spend some money on HiFistuff again...:blush: :blush:
Best regards, Michael

Tags:
0

Dipole with Oris horns ?

by jdunham @, Friday, September 29, 2006, 22:25 (4133 days ago) @ MichaelW

My drivers are 15" but my room is only around 24M2

You will need more cone area than for a reflex loaded bass, especially if you use some EQ. But I've disconnected the top driver on mine, and they happily run at high volumes with just one driver. So again its worth trying with one first. Just keep the first one on the floor if you end up with one per side.

Regards,

Jonathan

Tags:
0

Dipole ? Dipole !!!!!!

by MichaelW @, Saturday, September 30, 2006, 12:17 (4132 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi,
I just had a test with my Beymas as dipoles. Only hold by srew clamps and layed next to the vented enclosures, no gain for the lowbass, only cutoff with 24dB @ 200Hz, driven by chipamps with less damping.
How does it sound ?
Yeahhaaa...!!!:grin:
That´s what Bass should sound like for my ears.
The bass keeps up with the speed and dynamics of the horns, it plays louder than my neighbours will tolerate and what suprises me most: I plays real deap. I´ll probably don´t need to equalize the deep bass.
This means building heavy walls for holding the Drivers, extra stands for the horns (I want to keep them away from the shaking bassdriver) and an exercise in patience for me, till the behringe a500 amp (with more power and first of all more damping) arrives.
Thank you all for encouraging me to try this.
I should have done this earlier...

Best regards, Michael

Tags:
0

Dipole ? Dipole !!!!!!

by jdunham @, Monday, October 02, 2006, 10:57 (4130 days ago) @ MichaelW

Hi Michael,

Yeahhaaa...!!!:grin:
That´s what Bass should sound like for my ears.

Good news welcome to the club!

louder than my neighbours will tolerate and what suprises me most: I plays
real deap. I´ll probably don´t need to equalize the deep bass.

Thats the common finding that many who have never actually tried one caNot believe. Often the real (and measured) result means that EQ is not required (or very little).

This means building heavy walls for holding the Drivers, extra stands for
the horns (I want to keep them away from the shaking bassdriver)

Actually, as long as you have some decent weight for the baffle and stand, the Oris is not affected if placed on the top with Sorbothane or similar pads.

I used scaffolding tube (used for building construction!) for the frame, with a solid oak platform at the bottom, and a thick particle board baffle. Even with the two drivers at high volume, there is very little energy getting into the stand itself. If needed I could fill the steel tube with sand (or something heavier still), that would make it really heavy!

Regards,

Jonathan

Tags:
0

RSS Feed of thread