reference compact driver alternative (Off Topic)

by siepi @, Tuesday, November 14, 2006, 08:23 (4082 days ago)

hi

did anybody try a different driver then the recommended bd 15 with the reference compact ?
or is the ref. compact tuned to the bd 15 driver and other drivers would not really work as a drop in?
what did you use and with what results?

thanks

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reference compact driver alternative

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, November 14, 2006, 08:51 (4082 days ago) @ siepi

Hi,

What I know is that the driver for the BD15 is especially produced/manufatured for BD-Design and stuff like Q etc. matches the cabinet and rolloff towards the mid-high section(s).
There's more to say, but I'll leave that to Bert when he is back.

Maybe I should add that whereas the BD15 officially goes down to 30Hz, I measured a 25 Hz "straight" (in room) and very steep rolloff under that. Note this is a musical driver (with super lightweight cone) and not a subwoofer.

Peter

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reference compact driver alternative

by siepi @, Tuesday, November 14, 2006, 09:20 (4082 days ago) @ PeterSt.

hi peter
thanks for the quick reply.
i almost aticipated that kind of response , well i thought i could try something less expensive.
but i am happy to hear that it acyually goes down to 25hz.
what is the difference between a musical driver and a subwoofer as you call it?
musical bass driver might actually express better what i am loking for.
thanks

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, November 14, 2006, 10:25 (4082 days ago) @ siepi

hi peter
thanks for the quick reply.
i almost aticipated that kind of response , well i thought i could try
something less expensive.
but i am happy to hear that it acyually goes down to 25hz.
what is the difference between a musical driver and a subwoofer as you
call it?
musical bass driver might actually express better what i am loking for.
thanks

Hi,

A subwoofer goes somewhat lower (under 20Hz, up to 12 Hz or even lower), and it is usually a high excursion unit in order to achieve high sound pressure levels. Think of the cone to expand and retract for a total of 4cm or even more. In order to being able to achieve this, all (incl. the cone) have a higher mass, and therefore the cone has the inability to move as quickly as "music" requires. So a subwoofer generally is used for movies, where the low frequencies are used for effects. Note though that music in, say, 10% of cases contains sub-low frequencies just as well, which "nobody" knows, because hardly anyone uses a subwoofer for music.
*If* a subwoofer is used for music, is should play under the crossover of the bassdriver always, and most (active) subwoofers can't even be adjusted to such low crossover frequencies.

So yes, the BD15 is a bass driver, but with the "exception" that it is able to produce bass waves at a real low end, maintaining the dynamics which sure can exist in bass waves just the same. The difference ? with you ear in this (200 Hz at the high end) unit you hear instruments like a cello etc., while with a normal bass driver you hear bass.
So in the end this 15" driver is just super fast, and that's where it was made for.

Also note that because of the very minor excursion (it is not visible with the eyes), there will be the least doppler distortion possible.

well i thought i could try something less expensive.

It is not about expensive I think. To my findings, proper drivers (I mean, the best) can't be bought from a general brand. Superduper drivers just aren't produced generally, or are too general to apply in "your" specific situation. So, a loudspeaker manufacturer often let produce his own drivers dedicately. And well, yes, that makes them more expensive.

Lastly, don't forget what you get for it; Supposed you get something like the Orphean as well (there's an "adjusted" driver in there too :smile: ), I think I saw a prototype of a completely adjustable filter with which you can suit your needs always. It is amazing how that lets you tune the speakers to your room situation and/or preferences.

Please allow Bert to correct me where I was wrong or out of line. :bey:

Peter

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by siepi @, Tuesday, November 14, 2006, 19:12 (4082 days ago) @ PeterSt.

that makes perfect sense , and the way you define it , i am not looking for a subwoofer but a very good bass driver which is what bert obviously offers.

and i rather spend my money once for the real thing then fool around with a cheap version and complain that it doesn't work .

i mean , bert did the thinking for me , why not just trust him .

thanks , you really helped me sort some things out quickly.

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by soundcheck @, Germany, Friday, November 17, 2006, 08:16 (4079 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi,

What I know is that the driver for the BD15 is especially
produced/manufatured for BD-Design and stuff like Q etc. matches the
cabinet and rolloff towards the mid-high section(s).
There's more to say, but I'll leave that to Bert when he is back.

Maybe I should add that whereas the BD15 officially goes down to 30Hz, I
measured a 25 Hz "straight" (in room) and very steep rolloff under that.
Note this is a musical driver (with super lightweight cone) and not a
subwoofer.

Peter

Below refers to my (or other) open dipole enclosure:

In my case the BD15 does behave according to spec with an fs of 37Hz and a QTS of 0,25.
I don't see a level of 30 or even lower Frequency, without equalization.
The low QTS doesn't give a boost in the lower range around FS, when installed in an open baffle.
It would need quite some equalization to boost the driver up around FS or lower. With my Behringer I do equalize the lower end slightly.

Even though I miss out some Hz on the lower range. I'd never go back to
vented or other designs. The airy undistorted bass is just outstanding.

And yes - The BD15s are nice musical woofer.

If you want to have a woofer for a dipole design going lower than fs of 37Hz you may look for a driver with a higher QTS (Which brings in other problems!).

Klaus

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by siepi @, Saturday, November 18, 2006, 15:55 (4078 days ago) @ soundcheck

hallo Klaus
i saw your Ripole with the BD 15 and this was definetly something i thought about also . using a dipole bass with an open baffle widerange makes perfect sense.
do you have more information on how to built the dipole / ripole?

in my research i discovered a lot of threads on the german hifi forum ( i am born in german and live in the usa) that mentions that ripole bass is not ideal if you listen to rock music , but is more precise with less umph.
and also needs space to work properly .

what is your experience regarding rock or other bass heavier music ?
how much space do the ripoles require to work properly?
back wall distance would be important because my space is restricted.
you can PM me if you want . german is ok .
malcolm
siepi_70@hotmail.com

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by soundcheck @, Germany, Saturday, November 18, 2006, 17:07 (4078 days ago) @ siepi

Hi Malcom.

Perhaps you start studying www.dipol-plus.de.
The page gives you a lot of background and refers to a lot of reference sites, tools etc.
There are also some threads on DIY-AUDIO about Ripoles.
You'll find the links also on www.dipolplus.de.

Rock-Music:

I never listen to Rock-Music. (at least not on my system) :grin:
I don't know what to tell you about it.

A poor flat recording will sound poor and flat.
The Ripole plays what's on the disc. No extra bang or boom.
That'll be a new experience, that's for sure.

The more I focssed on High-End audio, the more I wanted to listen to more natural, live and complex music.
Over time my music-taste changed completely.
All pop and rock sounds boring to me nowadays.
Classics, Jazz and Folk are my preferences.

The other day I had the YIM-HOK-MAN - Master of Chinese Percussion on the player. The first track "Poem of Chinese Drum", with real big drums
blows your mind off.
Once you have heard that, you wouldn't ask if the dipole is able to play
Rock-Music or bass. It's breathtaking.

Dipoles need some air to breathe. Otherwise the reflections will impact the sound.
Best position is 1/3 of the room size. Due to the acoustic shortcut on the sides, they do not need much space (50cm) to the left and right.

Constructionwise it is pretty straight forward. You've seen that on the pictures. Let me know if you decide to go ahead. I can get you some more details.

Cheers Klaus

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by unknown, Sunday, November 19, 2006, 11:57 (4077 days ago) @ soundcheck

The other day I had the YIM-HOK-MAN - Master of Chinese Percussion on the
player. The first track "Poem of Chinese Drum", with real big drums
blows your mind off.
Once you have heard that, you wouldn't ask if the dipole is able to play
Rock-Music or bass. It's breathtaking.

That Yim Hok-Man CD is one of the best you can get to evaluate the bass set up.:good: :good:

As luck would have it (for the UK), it is on special offer at HMV for £4.99 inc P&P. Treat yourself:wink:

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/simpleSearch.do?pGroupID=1&simpleSearchString=yim&p...

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by Don Reid, Rural Northwest Georgia, USA, Sunday, November 19, 2006, 16:24 (4077 days ago) @ soundcheck
edited by unknown, Sunday, November 19, 2006, 18:59

Hi Everyone,

An invaluable source of information which should be studied by those wishing to learn about dipole loudspeakers is at:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html

Linkwitz covers the subject in great detail. Also his designs enjoyed substantial commercial success and wide subjective reviewer acclaim.

Don Reid

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