Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading (Off Topic)

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Thursday, November 23, 2006, 13:04 (4078 days ago)

Gentleman,

Have you tried such loading? How decide which driver is good enough for horns/waveguides according to TS parameters? Most cones are mass loaded so they aren't a proper choice?

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Monday, November 27, 2006, 12:17 (4074 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek,

Have you tried such loading? How decide which driver is good enough for horns/waveguides according to TS parameters? Most cones are mass loaded so they aren't a proper choice?

A long time ago I have used a Jordan JX50 with a rear loaded horn but never with a front loaded horn because that will not work.

The basic function of a horn is to "amplify" frequencies in the lower frequencies within a range depending on the driver's parameters. Jordan drivers were made for baffle loading (like a normal box) with parameters making giving it a balanced frequency respons from the low up to the high frequencies. Adding a horn in front will only amplify the frequencies (giving a boost) most effective in the range (Fs*2)/Qes.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Monday, November 27, 2006, 23:33 (4073 days ago) @ Bert

Understood but Lowther DX4 which I've auditioned with Oris 150 in AES is 2*36/0,22=327Hz. This is a low range. We caNot amplify mid frequencies?

Two things:

1) Horn can be used as a waveguide. It is interesting approach too. Nobody tried it with small exception: http://www.maclementhorn.it/TqwtHorn.htm

2) When the owner of AES Germany showed me Lowther DX4 with Oris150 it was clear to me that there was no centre image - instruments played from left and right speaker separately with different programme material. He said the angling was bad. Something opposite form AER MD3 driver. There was also HF content.

If the FL loading for Jordans is not recommended then I will try bipolar infinite baffle with dipole bass.

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Monday, November 27, 2006, 23:45 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja

Nobody tried it with small exception:

[img]images/uploaded/image152.jpg[/img]

:evil:

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 00:25 (4073 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Looks like young Edison experiment ;)

Can you elaborate?

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 01:12 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja
edited by unknown, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 01:16

Looks like young Edison experiment ;)

Can you elaborate?

Hi Jacek,

I did this just like you suggested : guiding the waves. Never saw it before and came up with it myself.
I wanted to concentrate the energy more towards the listening place and it works wonderfully. It's not just GCdB louder, but merely "better". It's more instruments and less sizzing (in the highs). Much better definition, much better placement.

This beats it though :

[img]images/uploaded/image137.jpg[/img]

( http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/index.php?id=11139&page=1&category=0&order=la... )

:dancing:

Peter

PS: Edison invented light, I molested it ... :swoon:

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 08:55 (4073 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Very nice Peter. This are Tractrix horns? What about bass horn cut-off frequency?

Waveguides aren't that simple. You must prove by measurements that this works (back slope CSD, off axis response). Many artefacts can be considered as good sound - for example some distortions (analytical highs) or jagged step response that in bad horns can cause unnatural size of instruments.

Using Foobar and DSP correction is interesting and I did so. From the other side you like NOS-DACs that deliver perfect square wave without ringing. Digital linear crossovers with correction filters rings the same way like OS-DACs. It is interesting for me if this is a real thing to have perfect square wave. I have no experience with NOS-DACs.

Have you seen Dr Earl Geddes Summa Cum Laude? This is proper waveguide implementation.

PS. Do you agree with Olson that many solid state amplifiers will not work with horns and compression drivers because of back-EMF?

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 09:27 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek,

I can't answer all of your questions now, but let's say that you dove into a forum that is dealing with your subjects for a great deal. I'd say, do a textserach for "square", find the posts with my name behind them, and start reading ... Same with Foobar and all.

Btw, the horns shown are being build by the owner of this website (BD-Design), and this particular model is The Swing (here's the link again :cool: ) :

http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/index.php?id=11139&page=1&category=0&order=la...

The Swing consists of The Orphean (top horn) and 2 BD15 woofers.

The bass horn rolls of at 200 Hz (upper :naughty: ) and rolls off rather steeply at 25Hz (under). Note that the 25Hz is in-room.
The graph is completely straight (up to the 25H - ±19.800 Hz)), and note that the filter can be adjusted (user-friendly) by about all means to fit the room.
This is not a commercial expression, and I took the measurements myself.

More later ...
Peter

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 10:46 (4073 days ago) @ PeterSt.

It seems that AES has your speakers on the stock. I will check them. Measurements on AES site shows that time transmittance is bad however front step slopes can be just good. I'm on the perfect pulse response camp (Quad ESL/Manger MSW). Of course wide dynamic range of horns is attractive. Less room reflections also but from the other side D. Moulton's proposals are more and more popular.

In Poland we have strong DIY group on USB NOS-DAC (Peter Daniel, Boeing) and the subjective tests with modern Crystal OS-DACs shows that there's no important difference. I don't believe in electronics since I can't tell the difference between DVD DACs produced in 5 years span using high resolution headphones. Some transducer/amp mismatches can exist and distortions studies of higher harmonics and masking are at the beginning. Also recording engineers use OS-ADC so that we haven't any non-sinusoid signal in the original sound. If you like pulse without ringing go to the LPs :)

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 11:16 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja

.... Also recording engineers use OS-ADC so that we haven't any non-sinusoid signal in the original sound. If you like pulse without ringing go to the LPs :)

Note that most of these recordings are downsampled to 16-bit CD's...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 09:25 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek,

Understood but Lowther DX4 which I've auditioned with Oris 150 in AES is 2*36/0,22=327Hz. This is a low range. We caNot amplify mid frequencies?

The DX4 is more like 2*60/0.24=500Hz (never trust TS parameters!) and even then it does amplify mid frequencies. The calculated corner frequencies are the -3dB roll-off frequencies (1st order). Furthermore the horn starts to act as a "wave guide" reflecting the energy forward that normally is going to the sides.

Using a fronthorn on a Jordan will only amplify (boost with max. 18dB) in the calculated range and adds maximum 6dB in front of the horn where the waves are longer than the diameter of the driver.

This means that a 6" driver (without whizzer) having a smooth frequency respons on-axis up to the highest frequencies will show an very different frequency respons when loaded with a front horn or wave guide.

A Lowther driver (or AER) do have a frequency response that has a rising respons (only on-axis!!) and in this situation the horn levels the tonal balance if designed properly.

1) Horn can be used as a waveguide. It is interesting approach too. Nobody tried it with small exception: http://www.maclementhorn.it/TqwtHorn.htm

I have tried it and although it gives advantages (more clear and focussed sound in the midrange), the overall quality is worse. Soundig great on some music and sounding completely off balance with other music...

That TQWT remembers me to an old design of mine, good to see that I still can motivate people to create similar things! :smile:

2) When the owner of AES Germany showed me Lowther DX4 with Oris 150 it was clear to me that there was no centre image - instruments played from left and right speaker separately with different programme material. He said the angling was bad. Something opposite form AER MD3 driver. There was also HF content.

This is not about the angling (in the high frequencies?) which is causing that, it is usually distortion. The more own sound a driver makes, the more distortion an amplifier or source provides, the more wrong reflections from the sides, the more left/rigth sound you'll hear. Sound which is not part of the recorded signal draws attention to itself and that reduces the image coming loose from the speakers. The horns should also not be placed too wide from each other (as with most speakers) to prevent that the center image becomes weak and fuzzy...

In my system (here at home) the music comes loose completely from the speakers with the music coming from a much wider and deeper stage than where the horns are positioned.

If the FL loading for Jordans is not recommended then I will try bipolar infinite baffle with dipole bass.

For the Jordans this would be a better solution...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 10:53 (4073 days ago) @ Bert

Your horns were placed in corners - something like 120 deg to the listener. Too large span IMHO. Any horn/driver combination requires some correction. If it can be solved via DSP I would be happy. It is important to design a proper phase plug and internal reflection damping.

What about input wavefront? OS waveguide requires a plan wave and Tractrix? A sphere? Does it matter?

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 11:11 (4073 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek.

Your horns were placed in corners - something like 120 deg to the listener. Too large span IMHO. Any horn/driver combination requires some correction.

That would explain partly what you're hearing I guess...

If it can be solved via DSP I would be happy. It is important to design a proper phase plug and internal reflection damping.

No DSP for me please, if you know how hard it is to get decent quality (so many things influencing the data) from a "simple" 16-bit recording...

What about input wavefront? OS waveguide requires a plan wave and Tractrix? A sphere? Does it matter?

Everything matters and has its positive or negative influence. I can't tell without own experiments prooving the balance going for the better or worse.

Theory is usually very limited, the ears hear much more than theory or measurements tend to proove...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 00:57 (4072 days ago) @ Bert

Why not DSP? Modern sound cards have the newest and very good DA converters - see for example E-MU 1616m. You can also use NOS-DACs having an optical out from multichannel I/O card if you like. If you try it you'll never go back. For more information go to the Acourate documents. Also see Farina documents about Acoustic Quality Tests (AQT).

What we need for DSP is a transducer with perfect time transmittance.

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 03:24 (4072 days ago) @ jzagaja

Why not DSP? Modern sound cards have the newest and very good DA converters
- see for example E-MU 1616m. You can also use NOS-DACs having an optical
out from multichannel I/O card if you like. If you try it you'll never go
back. For more information go to the Acourate documents. Also see Farina
documents about Acoustic Quality Tests (AQT).

:bey:


Couldn't you get some decent equipment first, and listen ?
:sleepy:

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 09:37 (4072 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Couldn't you get some decent equipment first, and listen ?

What kind of equipment? Which brands you have in your mind Peter?

I've been in AES yesterday (to see your speakers) and they told me to come after 40 days. Last time I was they told me they will have new exposition within 10 days. It looks like they know that I will not buy anything and got rid of me. Sad thing.

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 09:41 (4072 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek,

I've been in AES yesterday (to see your speakers) and they told me to come after 40 days. Last time I was they told me they will have new exposition within 10 days. It looks like they know that I will not buy anything and got rid of me. Sad thing.

It sure is a sad thing, any specific reason given?

BTW, you're mixing persons! At AES they won't have Peter's speakers (no lamp shades either)... :grin:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 09:53 (4072 days ago) @ Bert

Dear Bert,

It sure is a sad thing, any specific reason given?

I think no reason - I've only been once and have had a nett talk with chief.

BTW, you're mixing persons! At AES they won't have Peter's speakers (no
lamp shades either)... :grin:

Well I saw the picture on the main site:

http://www.aes-kassel.de/index.htm

Best Regards,

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:04 (4072 days ago) @ jzagaja

Hi Jacek,

BTW, you're mixing persons! At AES they won't have Peter's speakers (no
lamp shades either)... :grin:


Well I saw the picture on the main site:

http://www.aes-kassel.de/index.htm

These are the present speakers of Peter. He did have the Oris Swing for a few weeks to play with...

[img]images/uploaded/image152.jpg[/img]

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:33 (4072 days ago) @ Bert

Dear Bert and Peter,

These are simple conical horns? Which drivers exactly? Any measurements?

BR,

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 16:53 (4071 days ago) @ jzagaja

Couldn't you get some decent equipment first, and listen ?


What kind of equipment? Which brands you have in your mind Peter?

Hi Jacek,

I said this, because I have the strong feeling that communication is a bit difficult because of a different "base". I mean, first you kind of "strict" tell us to connect a NOS-DAC to a toslink connection from a multi I/O card with the gurantee we will never go back from that, then you clearly didn't inform yourself about the content of this forum which is for a rather large amount about the highest quality audio possible, and next you apparently didn't listen to you own suggestion on any decent equipment because it is about commonly known that a toslink connection already is kind of worthless for quality (this sequence can be read randomly).

Forgive me to say so (or state so if you want), but generally this is not about brands but about money. You must kind of accept that when you are into DIY DACs costing a few 100 euro you won't be able to "communicate" in here. Oh, you can, but don't tell e.g. me to do such and so with a promise I will like it. I won't and I know it already. If you only *think* your multi I/O card will do some good (dig-out), you just didn't listen to it, or your equipment is not fit to express the differences.

If the moderator (which I certainly am not !) allows it, I would like to say that this is not a forum with people stating things as such, but that we try to share experiences in the context of peoples' environments, always looking for even better sound than yesterday. Obviously this starts with decent equipment and this may cost a car and more. A multi I/O card is in the other leage, which in the end comes to the super complex world of PC-playback (of which you apparently didn't know it exists :smile: ). Sound cards *do not* have decent DACs or lack the complete workout for proper playback. To get the idea : I use a 1,400 euro soundcard just and only to connect it digitally to my DAC. Not because I like to spend the money, but because only then it works for quality like I can reason it.

If "we" play tracks from harddisk versus CDRom versus from RAM, we hear the difference within a few seconds. Really.

Oh well, I hope I didn't offend you, but in the mean time I felt to respond to your earlier post somehow and I did it like I did it. I hope I explained it a bit now.
Regards,
Peter

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Jordan JXR6 or JX92S front loading

by jzagaja, Kassel 34117, Szczecin 70843, Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 23:00 (4071 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Dear Peter,

I'm not offended and resistive for an audiophile mambo jumbo. Forget about optical out. It was my mistake in the context of popular Philips TDA NOS dacs.

If "we" play tracks from harddisk versus CDRom versus from RAM, we hear the >difference within a few seconds. Really.

Interesting :) What kind of difference?

You must kind of accept that when you are into DIY DACs costing a few 100 euro
you won't be able to "communicate" in here.

Quality is not related with price. The high price is because people don't feel good paying to less. It is a knowledge. You can only impress me with your knowledge. It is easy just describe your electronic network. We will see if you are typical audiophile with "golden ears" or a deep understanding man.

--
Jacek Zagaja


Universität Kassel,
Institut für Werkstofftechnik
Kunststoff- und Recyclingtechnik
34125 Kassel, Mönchebergstraße 3

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