amplifier for orphean horns

hi Bert

i am still figuring out what amp to buy for the orpheans. i liked the Ladyday
SET amp, but a view days ago i saw a report at 6moons abought a solide state amp, red wine signature 30 , http://www.redwineaudio.com/Signature_30.html, wich got excellent review from Srajan Ebaen, and price is similar to the Ladyday ,( us$1400,00 ) retail. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine4/30.html
what amp do u think could be a better match for the orpheans ?

thanks, regards angelo

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Angelo,
sorry i can not offer any direct comparison because i don't own the ladyday or even horns yet. but I can advise that the Signature 30 is a superb amp, and Vinnie Rossi has fantastic customer service!
The amp is battery powered - and charging is no problem at all as it will run 24hr on 1 charge. I have sent my Ack! Dack DAC to Vinnie to have the battery supply upgraded from it's standard 6hour run time.

You may have picked up in the 6 moon review that Sarjan likes front horns (AG Duos were his reference speakers) and valve gear.... he postulates that the Signature 30 should be a good match for horns. Until i can afford Orpheans I am building some DIY front horns which will be driven by the Sig 30. (actually it's an Omega Signature 30 - a RWA Sig 30 in a beautiful wooden enclosure)

try red wine audios forum (on the Audio Circle)There are plenty of opinions there including a few from Sarjan. I haven't seen any front horn users posting yet but will when my horns are built.

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hi fu_man

thanks for your reply. i had some email exchange with vinnie rossi, he gave me nice attention, seems to be a nice guy. between his amp, there are another two, that srajan mentions as " best three solid-state amps I've heard " : the Audio Sector Patek seems to use similar circuits ( actually is chip amp a new method od amplification ?) and at the same price league. do u have any comparison experience , ore heard that amp ? angelo

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is chip amp a new method od amplification ?)

:heart:

Hi Angelo,

I think the Red Wine Sig30 would be my amp. This is what I got from the 6moons review (pfff over 1 hour of reading) :

One specific application where the Signature 30 would shine like no tomorrow is ultra-sensitive hornspeakers. Traditionally the focus of micro-power valve amps, the innate self noise endemic to such devices when spotlit by 110dB+ speakers makes them simultaneously unsuitable (hum and hiss) and attractive (sonics). With similar sonics and zero noise, the 30 now becomes the winning lottery ticket. Plus, its built-in attenuator makes gain matching for multi-way horn systems with varying sensitivities per driver child's play. And the double plus - to get all this for the money asked rather than the steep fees premium micro-power SETs tend to command is simply designer gravy with buckets of cream in it. The same holds true for any bi- or multi-amp scenarios without the gain matching provisions of active crossovers.

and

Variable outputs allow for bi-amp or subwoofer scenarios. A premium DacT attenuator -- remote volume a $299 option -- allows for (but doesn't mandate) source-direct connection.

For me this will be the ultimate "solution";
The amp is great (I accept that without listening), and it just needs two + remote control for bi-amping. The main point is : no active or passive pre-amp needed ! It's all in there. And all as direct as possible.

Btw, here is a picture of such a chip amp. The chip is the 1 cm wide thingy on the left of this. I didn't look it up, but I think the Tripath TK2051 chip in the Sig30 contains a 4 x 30 W amplifier. It will save me 5,000KWh per year ! :grazy:

[img]images/uploaded/image159.jpg[/img]

Peter

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hi peter

i think also i will buy this amp. now i am just still in doubt, if i will buy also the room correction pre amp from tact. my listening room is 6x6m. square room naturally reinforces standing waves double, by duplicating the same boundary distances in two directions. but in the meen time, these devices will harm transparency.... really need to decide what will serve me best.

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peter

diy , this kind of amp costs a mere us$550,00 :

http://www.vikash.info/audio/gainclone02/images.asp

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peter

diy , this kind of amp costs a mere us$550,00 :

http://www.vikash.info/audio/gainclone02/images.asp

Hi Angelo,

Yeah, or less. But I don't think you should do that. The quality of any T-(class) amp is highly defined by the things around it. It is VERY easy though to upgrade a T-amp design with better caps etc. But the Sig30 seems to have it all already (also look at the $$ attenuator).

Peter
:sleepy:

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peter

u are right, In the case of Red Wine Audio, it's the implementation, the battery supply and the Jensen PIO cap that together make for the sonics.

angelo

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I built a mono pair of those for bass amp usage for my Reference Compacts a few years ago. I also built a stereo version for my sister. They sound great on the BD15s.

The cases were designed by Peter Daniel, who also designed the Patek. They use the same circuit board and very similar parts, I believe. The Patek has an offboard power supply, that is why it looks so small and cute.

Bert's BD30 is also a gainclone and probably sounds similar, perhaps even better, because it is optimized expressly for BD-Design products. I heard a pair once but not in comparison with my amps.

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Bert's BD30 is also a gainclone and probably sounds similar, perhaps even
better, because it is optimized expressly for BD-Design products.

The BD30 is a class D design I think, hence that's very different. :smile:
Peter

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Peter,

No, that isn't correct. In Bert's words:

"It is a chipamp, extremely compact build with high-end quality power supply."

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Here is the exact version I built:

http://www.audiosector.com/chassis_integrated.shtml

Peter Daniel provided those cases for DIY use for about $250.00 U.S. each, if I remember correctly. He had a special front made without knob holes for the mono blocks.

There is room inside the case for the bass filter and pot.

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hi fu_man

thanks for your reply. i had some email exchange with vinnie rossi, he
gave me nice attention, seems to be a nice guy. between his amp, there are
another two, that srajan mentions as " best three solid-state amps I've
heard " : the Audio Sector Patek seems to use similar circuits ( actually
is chip amp a new method od amplification ?) and at the same price league.
do u have any comparison experience , ore heard that amp ? angelo

Angelo,
No, sorry i can't give you a comparison with the patek. But i agree with Bert inasmuch as even if i preferred one over the other it probably would be of much use to you unless either one of them was really terrible and the other not (which is not the case) or if i was particularly experienced and skilled at trying to convey the difference between the two - which i am not - read 6 moons for that! My taste will no doubt differ.

Personally, although i love that glowing glass, i didn't want valves and my young children mixing... my lounge was "fenced off" for long enough when i had my martin logans running :grin:

I choose RWA Sig 30 after being so impressed with a RWA squeezebox mod.

regarding cost of parts: a couple of people have suggested to me that the same can be had for very cheap DIY... it's obviously true that you can make a cheap chip/Tripath amp... that's what all the fuss about the sonic impact T amp was about... but will it be voted as one of the best products of 2006 by a well respected tube lovin' editor/reviewer? Again check the Audiocircle if you want to read a few 'reviews' from people who have compared the Sig 30 with their tubes. (remember, no one is saying it is the same) Still i'm not saying that the ladyday would be better for you, and Bert no doubt knows what works well with his speakers.

Good luck.

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Hi Angelo,

i am still figuring out what amp to buy for the orpheans. i liked the
Ladyday
SET amp, but a view days ago i saw a report at 6moons abought a solide
state amp, red wine signature 30 ,
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Signature_30.html, wich got excellent review
from Srajan Ebaen, and price is similar to the Ladyday ,( us$1400,00 )
retail. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine4/30.html
what amp do u think could be a better match for the orpheans ?

As long as I haven't heard a chip or solid state amp sounding better than the ladyday I remain to use that amp. I have no idea to what qualities people refer when they test or review an amplifier and which ones are most important to them.

On my system, when listeing to a solid state amp (probably because using feedback) then I am missing the most important part of the music and that is freedom and open sound with a lot of space.

I have heard many amps here and some do sound very well compared to the Ladayday in respect to detail, dynamics, silence, controlled bass, etc. but when connecting the Ladayday back all these positve extra's seem to be of less importance. The sound always opens up, there is no stress anymore making you instantly enjoy the music and feel relaxed.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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huh, u are making my decision difficult, bert.... :cool: :cool:

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huh, u are making my decision difficult, bert....

Think what is most important to you...

Chipamps are good for bass, you'll need those anyhow and when you have them you can listen how they perform on the Orphean. :wink:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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wherever ther is choice there is misery...:wink:

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hi bert

the aura 1808 bass i bought in germany arrived at custom yesterday. i want to use it as subwoofer in the 20 - 50 hz region, where my klipschorns dont play anymore. so i guess your chip amp wont work, as it is stereo, right ?
i will build up a home theater. i have already all chassis to built the surround speakers. i will also need a 5channel amp. do u have any recomendation of one, that sounds nice, and wont be too expensive ?
Never thought to make some surround horn speakers ? may some market for that.

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Hi Angelo,

....play anymore. so i guess your chip amp wont work, as it is stereo, right ?

Will work, the modules are mono but for subwoofer use I would use more power like 200-1000W (more important than quality).

i will build up a home theater. i have already all chassis to built the
surround speakers. i will also need a 5channel amp. do u have any
recomendation of one, that sounds nice, and wont be too expensive ?
never thought to make some surround horn speakers ? may some market for
that.

For an optimal 5.1 system you should use identical speakers. I have enough to supply... :grin:

I do not use identical speakers for HT, using it only for movies with a 9500 liter (335,489 cu/ft) horn as subwoofer, the Swing as main speakers, simple and small 2-way hif-system for the rear channels and no center speaker (sitting at the sweetspot of the main speakers so there is no real need for that).

Perfect combination!

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Me again ...

First of all, as a "reference" I listened to the Sonic T-Amp, and I think I can hear where the comparison with valves are being made by others. I'd call it distortion, and not much different from a valve amplifier (as far as it concernes "distortion", not for real sonic experience).

For me, the Sonic T-Amp failed. Rather miserably. But then again, I think I could hear where it failed, and that it doesn't take much to improve it. This, while improvements are rather easy to achieve.
Also note that the Sonic T-Amp really doesn't have enough juice to make anything for whatever, *and* that a chip amp is rated against 50% of its max power while it starts to distort at this 50% or so of the power it can produce (a 9 Watt version really shouldn't be used above 5 Watt, or you end up with 40% (!!!) distortion). Or something like that (but REALLY bad anyway).
This is why you 'll need the (4x) 30W versions to begin with ... (4x 100W exists too I think).

I took the time to read through the whole 6moons review, and interpreting all and merging it with other "knowledge" ... I'm ready to buy it unheard.
This is also related to my judgement of the Sonic T-Amp, which really "did" something, although it wasn't right.

Although it will be personal, I'm in the leage of wanting to have mucho headroom, just because I can hear it brings something for the better.
If you combine this with a just a tad too large room for a SE valve amp (usually no more than 7 Watts) *and* my thinking that "distortion" is not good anyway (no matter how much you might like the sound coming from it), the chipamp is - or could be something as best of both worlds.

I think it is not fair to state that because you heard the one, all the others can't be right either. Besides that, much is personal *and* relative to the environment (large room etc.).

What I really think that's wrong, is that this thread starts with a theoretical recommended chipamp, but flaws into a general discussion about cheaper, DIY, and worst, a failing Sonic T-Amp as a reference. Of course Angelo, you kind of started it yourself by coming up with the Patek. This chipamp too received a good reference, BUT, for that matter it was just as good as the Sonic T-amp. Remember, all is relative, and the Sonic T-Amp already receives a good reference because it just costs nothing. But read well, read in between the lines, have one (heard) in your mind as a reference, and pay good attention. All three mentioned were reviewed at 6moons.

I can twist this into negative as well;
The Sig30 was reviewed by means of making use a Zanden $$,$$$ DAC ! Did you notice ?!
So all is relative, and in the end nothing can be trusted. For that matter, if you'd listen today to my Infinity's with front mounted lamp hoods :lol: , I could easily sell you my amps, I could sell the lamphoods, I could sell the Inifity's. It's just what I "want" you to sell. You will pay for it (and too much). I am (by far) not saying that this happens at 6moons, but when an amp is judged my means of about the worlds best Dac, which they received for evaluation just the same you tell me.
In my case and my amps and lamp hoods and all, it's really about one thing only : the software player. It is this what lets emerge the quality of the other components. It won't improve it, but it lets them work to their best (real message : Infinity's won't be better than Orphean horns because of it).

But I don't want to make the Sig30 negative. I read it all, interpreted all, and come to the conclusion that it hardly caNot be okay (read : it will be okay).
Don't project this to the chipamp in general, or that one can do it himself for that matter.

One last thing for fun :
Letting run such a thing on batteries is not a big deal;
If I am informed well into these matters, for a chipamp this hardly can make a sonic difference. Read : it just isn't necessary at all.
But now imagine ... without the bateries the thingy will way 500grams, added up by a square decimeter PCB, the box, and probably the power adapter. Would you be able to hear decent sound with "balls" (as we say it in Holland). I can't ... :dntknw:
Thus, add a couple of batteries so the whole starts to weigh a bit (7 kilograms, whatever) and now this problem is over. Nice trick.

Now thinking of the last, yes, you could do it yourself. But *still* you'd end up with the Sonic T-amp or similar, to begin with. And you wouldn't like that. Not if you have the reference of something like the Orphean. And you have ...

Peter

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hi Peter

Vinnie Rossi send me some more information today :

I noticed that people on that forum refer to a Sonic Impact T-Amp (that is the picture of the little circuit board that you included in your post). That is a very cheap, 6-watt into 8-ohm (11 watts into 4-ohm) amplifier that generated a lot of buzz because of its low price and pretty good performance. It is based on the Tripath TA2024 chip. It runs on +12V. In terms of performance, it doesn't even come close. Of course for the price ($39), it is a lot of fun and can be modified for better performance.

The Signature 30 is a totally different animal. I designed the circuit board for the Signature 30 and am using the TK2051 chipset (30 watts x 2 channels into 8-ohm). It runs on +24V. The circuit board design (layout, parts used, etc) highly influence the resulting sound. The power supply is also very important. This is why I chose to use high-current, SLA battery:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/SLA.html

as i am not in hurry to take a decision, i will justo continue to search and read in the net abought these matters, until come to a conclusion.
I think Bert's experience weights , so i will carefully think if may not the Ladyday will work better for me. But, as i pretend to visit CES next year, if i buy the sig30, i can take it with me in my luggage, and wont pay custom fees
:cool:

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Although it will be personal, I'm in the league of wanting to have mucho

headroom, just because I can hear it brings something for the better.
If you combine this with a just a tad too large room for a SE valve amp
(usually no more than 7 Watts) *and* my thinking that "distortion" is not
good anyway (no matter how much you might like the sound coming from it),
the chipamp is - or could be something as best of both worlds.

Hi Peter

This sentiment echoes how my system has evolved.

For years I lived with the sound of 300Bs (Audionote Meishu). It was lovely in all the classical SE areas, but I always had the feeling something was lacking.

By pure chance I got to listen to an EAR 861 (32 push-pull watts)
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productdetails.asp?page=6&id=17.
Suddenly it all clicked in to place for me. The key improvements being the disappearance of the classical (SE) distortion and the introduction of a sound that is often described as effortless. I find it is this that makes the system relaxing and enjoyable.

Out went the Meishu and in came the EAR. Two years on, no regrets and never a thought to replace the EAR. Notionally it is grossly overpowered for the Lowthers DX4s in Hedlunds, but the answer lies in the word you used - headroom. :satisfied:

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Interesting about your findings of Push-Pull amps.

I'd like to try a PP DHT with 45s or 2a3s or 300bs someday, something like LyGC Olson and Gary Pimm's Karna designs. It could give the best of both worlds.

I would also like to try the Ladyday with Thorsten's WE91 mods. Bert, what version of the Ladyday are you running?

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... what version of the Ladyday are you running?

I have no idea. One of their first but optimised versions (ready build).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Hi folks.

I am a bit late on this one. Priorities are mainly on the source these days. :grin:
I put down the amp question a while ago.

I'd like to post my point of view, since I run a modded tripath 2020 amp since a while.

I think comparing the Sonic-Impact to a well designed tube-amp is rediculous.
There are ten times better T-Amp modules out there and not to forget other digital amp modules (e.g. Hypex, which are not much nore expensive).

Still there are just a few modules out there running on 12V.
Due to this fact they are not able to deliver very much power.
On >98 db/SPL speakers they still deliver more than enough power.

As some of you might know I am running a 2020 based heavily modded Monica module on a big-big battery (which makes a hell of a difference -- small batteries are not acceptable due to lack of dynamics caused by a high ESR!).

1. The T-amps are very sensitive to power quality. Lot of people running them on high-quality SMPS, which is good and delivers high dynamics.
My battery makes it better! No filters, radiation etc. Just pure brutal power!
2. T-Amps are picking up and radiating RF. Shield them!
3. They need some good parts (caps). Tweak them.
4. Forget driving your woofers with it, at least forget the small T-Amps for that job.
If you do that you can change out the input caps of the amp to a much smaller one.
This will take off the low frequency load from the amp. The amp likes it very much. :grin:
5-7W should be OK for the people around here having systems with 100db efficiancy. Still the 50W module at Audio-Digit 4*50 effective costs 160€ and is supposed to sound slightly better then their classic module, though the bigger modules do need a 24V power supply.
5. To avoid driving them too earliy into distortion they need some cooling on the back.

I guess I brought it quite far with the T-Amp. Even with the original Monica module on battery, I outperformed the Acoustic Reality (icepower 1000ASP)modules.

My future is digital and nothing else.
I don't waste any money on expensive not necessarily required stuff any longer. I burned enough money in my earlier audio-life. :fool:
(btw - anybody looking for Jeff Rowland Pre/AMP combo or Acoustic Reality 1000ASP mono modules - I got them for sale!) :wink:

Recommendation, if you're DIYer: Just get yourself a 80$ module and try it. If you don't like it you can use it also for a lot of other purposes, such as PC-Amp afterwards. I'll be around to give you some hints on nice tweaks. :wink:

Cheers
Klaus

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I think comparing the Sonic-Impact to a well designed tube-amp is
rediculous.

Agreed, who's doing that? We're comparing a tube amp to a S.O.T.A RWA Signature 30 which is nothing like a SI T amp.

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I think comparing the Sonic-Impact to a well designed tube-amp is
rediculous.

Agreed, who's doing that? We're comparing a tube amp to a S.O.T.A RWA
Signature 30 which is nothing like a SI T amp.

I thought I read some statements about tubes earlier. Anyhow.

Just looked it up. 1400$ is quite a lot of money in the T-amp world.

A good battery at that size cost you
20$. A DIY Amp Module cost you 80$.

Still as mentioned earlier IMO a 5Ah battery is not really fun!
The amp draws at least twice as much as my AMP. Lets say 800mA.

You shouldn't drive a battery below 45% of its capacitance. I'd say 3-4hours listening and the fun is over. And then 24h reload. No No. I've been through that with 10Ah batteries!

And never forget to turn that thingy off. After 6h your battery is most probably dead and ready for replacement! And I promise you it will happen! :grin: My 100Ah battery runs for days!

If not buffered properly these small batteries do lack a lot of dynamics. A SMPS gives you here much more punch.

I'd bet for 300$ max, you'd be able to get a better product, if you're able to do it by yourself, which won't be at all very difficult to establish, since the modules are preassembled.

Klaus

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hi klaus

vinnie uses following high-current, SLA batterys : http://www.redwineaudio.com/SLA.html and a TK2051 chipset (30 watts x 2 channels into 8-ohm). It runs on +24V. The circuit board design (layout, parts used, etc)seems that highly influence the resulting sound. i dont know if these components are more expensive than usual ones for t-amps, so that it justifies the price he asking.

angelo

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Second all this. I run a Charlize (Klaus, Monica is the DAC) as Klaus. I have nothing to say on valves since I caNot afford a transparent valve amplifier. With a good supply and supply decoupling and good input caps the amps sounds very good.

Class D and T amps are cheap. The price of the Red Wine Audio product is high relative to the cost of parts (including layout, I am sure they do not draw the PCBs but rather buy the modules). The rest covers development, risk, time etc + profit. I am not sure that profit is big once you account for everything, but I am sure that I, Klaus and lots of people here can buy the parts and end up with a comparable amp for no more than 300$.

Best
Giulio

I'd bet for 300$ max, you'd be able to get a better product, if you're
able to do it by yourself, which won't be at all very difficult to
establish, since the modules are preassembled.

Klaus

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Angelo.

I could not find the battery specs on the link you posted.
Anyhow:
High current is relative, right. Would you call 450Amps or something like that high current! From normal PS perspective with its 16A that's pretty high current -- right. But that's not the issue.

It is the ESR - resistance - which is the key here.
The northstar batteries do have 2mR, which is good for 4300 Amps
http://www.northstarbattery.com/data_sheets/TeleCom/NSB90.pdf

The dynamics, transient response, increases the lower the ESR.

The bigger the bat is, the more headroom you got, the more constant is your Voltage. You might loose 2V while playing with a small battery over 4hours.
My bat doesn't even recognize that some current is gone after 4 hours. :grin:

The big batteries much less degrade over time compared to the small batteries. The small ones sound quite OK in the early days. Wait a couple of months and you'll see what I mean.

I'd say in general it is pretty much the same compared to good old oversized high-end powers supplies. The big bat makes it all more relaxed.

Guilio:
Sorry for mixing up Monica and Charlize.:wacko: :grin: Perhaps it has something to do, with my personal preferences! :grin:
Still - I think I shouldn't call my Amp Charlize any longer.
Except the SMD parts nothing stayed on the board! Changing out the poor coupling C and swapping the output coils was the first thing I've done. This brought me a good step forward. E.g. swapping the air-coils to Mundorf foil coils gave me quite some more details in the sound and less distortions. I changed out all other caps and even the output filter.

Klaus

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It is the ESR - resistance - which is the key here.
The northstar batteries do have 2mR, which is good for 4300 Amps
http://www.northstarbattery.com/data_sheets/TeleCom/NSB90.pdf> >

Except the SMD parts nothing stayed on the board! Changing out the poor
coupling C and swapping the output coils was the first thing I've done.
This brought me a good step forward. E.g. swapping the air-coils to
Mundorf foil coils gave me quite some more details in the sound and less
distortions. I changed out all other caps and even the output filter.

Angelo,
If you can follow what Klaus is saying here then maybe a DIY system might be for you. If you are prepared to swap parts and tweak, and have some sort of reference to develop against. You could design your own tube amp too for comparison. You could DIY the Orphean too. BUT you will be 'lucky' to get results that result from the experience and skill of Bert. Seriously though if you can’t afford a sig 30 then maybe DIY is okay starting point - but don’t judge the RWA sig 30 by your results.
I think it is a bit unfair of others to criticize the pricing of an amp when they have not heard it, or even read about it.
I'm sure you have read that it is not a 24hr recharge, and that Vinnie has been selling products with these batteries for years so if his clients (many of which are DIYérs)found significant drops in quality after a few months we would know about it by now... so would Vinnie.

FWIW, here is a "review" from a new owner of Vinnies Sig70:
Well my Sig 70s are approaching 75 hours. This may be heresy but I REALLY HATE Solid State (except for its beautiful bass) but love SETs. Congratulations Vinnie, I think you have just created a Solid State SET!!! I'm not good at reviews but I know what I hear. Like many I have far too many amps (something I have to correct) but here is how the Sig 70s stack up against amps with which I am very familiar. I have two Harman Kardon Citation IIs from the mid 60s that the genius and guru of Citation IIs, Jim McShane completely rebuilt, re tubed to KT-90s, and wired so they could be switched between pentode and triode operation. The Sig 70s leave them in the dust. I have a pair of VTL-250s (250 watt triodes) and the 70s best them. Likewise the 70s surpass two SET amps I have, a tweaked pair of ASL Explorer monoblocks with NOS premium tubes and probably the last special order SE-40 SET made by Bel Canto. The later also has premium tubes. These amps put out 50 watts and 37 watts respectively. I have a pair of Kora Cosmos Reference monos (100 watts triode - Stereophile Class A) which I feel have the most beautiful highs I have ever heard. The Sig 70s have better bass but do not match the highs, but they are not embarrassed either

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hi fu_man

i am definitively not a diy guy, who wants to do things by myself, to save a view bucks. i think the sig30 will be the right amp for me, as it is for so many others, that write so positively abought it.
i just told Vinnie, that i will order one next week. all the info's here helped me too to get a decision. So: thanks to all for your precious informations that u shared here.

angelo

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Hi folks.

Just to make one thing clear. I am not a converted DIY-freak because of the money!
The "savings" are just a great side effect and eye-openers.

Key is the sound! Cost no object!

First of all, I guess developing and figuring out the things (facts), which I share with you are "Free of Charge!", without any commercial interest.
DIY, the way I do it, cost me definately more then buying an off-the-shelf product.
MY Amp has exceeded the before mentioned 300€, that's for sure.
And I am not talking about the money I burned on the commercial products I owned earlier.

I think it is not a secret that commercial audio-solutions will always be compromised solutions, doesn't matter how great the marketing messages or reviews are. Do you think Vinnie would have been able to sell a product with two 30kg (60pounds) each batteries in his solution! Nope! You won't find that in the whole market.(with one exemption I am aware of: Audio Consulting)
There are more compromises Vinnie has to live with, that's for sure.

Still I am not critizising his or others approaches. I am not in the position to do that. I just outline some limitations, which are also specific to my setup and might be applicable for others.
People, customers, which are not into DIY have to live with the things the market provides. Fair enough.

There are quite some DIYer around in Berts forum, who might be interested.
And I think even Bert is sometimes interested to hear about these tweaks and
findings we are talking about.

I started my DIY carreer with tweaking this and that. By now almost my whole chain is DIY, thanks to the phantastic modules available out there.

And my sound at home is definetly not a compromised solution. Though the design could be a bit improved. :grin:

Still -- listening to a top end audio system, which you've done almost by yourself is just a great uncomparable feeling which generates even more fun to listen to!

Cheers
Klaus

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Thanks Klaus,
I would love to have the ability you have to build your own system and get the great results that I have no doubt you get.
Sometimes when I mention my Sig 30 I get responses which point out the cost of the parts... but for me that's missing the point... it takes a great deal of knowledge and skill, often many years and dollars spent to get to the point where one can design a system to get results such as Vinnies or Berts.
Personally, I am fortunate to enjoy the benefits of the labours of others, such as yourself Klaus. Whether it is from purchasing equipment that gives great bang for buck, gaining knowledge or receiving opinions from those who have the experience to be worth listening to!
As I previously mentioned, I am building DIY horns myself (until I can afford to build one of Berts systems) and it certainly isn’t my own design. My information comes from the generous sharing of others - for which I am always grateful.

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Angelo

Pease follow up with your impressions after about 100hours of use. My amp got better day by day!
You will certainly have a couple of magical pieces of equipment... i am genuinely excited for you and hope they will have synergies to produce the type of music that gives you goose bumps!

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hi fu_man

i am quit happy to " wake up " again for high-end at a time, where such great products as bert's orpheans and the sig30 showed up . Certainly i will love to share my listening experience when these products are in place and play together.

angelo

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hi fu_man

just saw this italian company, manufacturing T - amps.

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=294

price is half of red wine... a pre-amp included. the sig30 needs a source switch, wich is another 500 us...

starting to see what other companys that built t-amps are charging, the sig30 does not look so cheap, really. but as i dont know someone that has reviewed it, it's difficult to have a idea abought the quality. it looks nice. my feeling is that the quality does not differe so much each one from another.

angelo

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it's difficult to have a idea abought the quality. it looks

nice. my feeling is that the quality does not differe so much each one
from another.

angelo

Have a look at this comparison of digital amps.. certainly not all the same although a big variance in price.
http://www.gr-research.com/amps/amps.shtm
Interestingly the SI T amp did well even given it's low price. And, I think we have already established that the Sig is NOTHING like a SI T amp!

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And just the ta2020 module can be had from diyparadise for $100...

Let's put it this way. Somebody compared Bert and Vinnie. The value added from R&D you get from Bert has little comparison and the quality of the ingredients he uses is the very best to start with.

ciao
giulio

hi fu_man

just saw this italian company, manufacturing T - amps.

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=294

price is half of red wine... a pre-amp included. the sig30 needs a source
switch, wich is another 500 us...

starting to see what other companys that built t-amps are charging, the
sig30 does not look so cheap, really. but as i dont know someone that has
reviewed it, it's difficult to have a idea abought the quality. it looks
nice. my feeling is that the quality does not differe so much each one
from another.

angelo

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And just the ta2020 module can be had from diyparadise for $100...

Let's put it this way. Somebody compared Bert and Vinnie. The value added
from R&D you get from Bert has little comparison and the quality of the
ingredients he uses is the very best to start with.

ciao
giulio

Isn't the compression driver that Bert STARTS OFF with in his latest 250 horn a relatively cheap driver...
In selecting that driver to develop, if i remember correctly, he bypassed some well respected compression drivers due to their "very best" prices?

(to avoid any confusion - this is NOT a put down of Bert or his work - there is one reason, and one reason only -that I have followed his work of the many years - and that is the belief I have in his ability)

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Hi Fu_man.

In selecting that driver to develop, if I remember correctly, he bypassed some well respected compression drivers due to their "very best" prices?

Its not about the most expensive products, its about their potential and level of quality that can be reached with it and fitting within my own philosophy.

You should hear the Orphean play...

If price is what matters then my sign below would state - Only the most expensive - and thus following the believe of many audiophiles thinking that it can only sound good if the price is very high.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Allow me Bert ... maybe you missed the point from fu_man;

Isn't the compression driver that Bert STARTS OFF ...

You are not going to tell me that you just put a small margin on top of the price of the driver and some plastic. In that case you'd have a huuuge margin. Instead, you put lots and lots of time in all, and that's what we gladly pay for.
The fact that nett your prices are okay is related (in)to your signature.

All together you can do this because of your personal dose of enthusiasm, together with no overhead (as long as you can hold up with that). *And* of course : you as the individual having all the knowledge to get there.
:clapping:

Peter

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hi peter

the feedback of owners of the audiodigit is very interesting, they write wonders abought this amp too, and price is half of the sig30 :

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=dee276a3becaaa5198bf37ffc393e1b8&th...

Now i dont know for what amp to go again !! :blush:

regards anelo

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Its not about the most expensive products, its about their potential and
level of quality that can be reached with it and fitting within my own
philosophy.

yeah, that was kind of my point... not all BMS drivers are going to sound the same - depending on how they are implemented... not all T amps will sound the same either

You should hear the Orphean play...

OMG you don't know how much I want to! If you ever sell one to anyone in New Zealand, please ask them that if they would be willing to demo it to contact me...I'll offer to take my Sig 30 around for them to trial! :wink:
I did try the NZ audio forum to find Oris owners but no luck...

If price is what matters then my sign below would state - Only the most
expensive - and thus following the believe of many audiophiles thinking
that it can only sound good if the price is very high.

Agreed, my comment related to this: "I have seen Goto several times, seems to be very good but their price tag is out of reach for most of us..." you then noted that these didn’t fit your philosophy. My point was that you take something that doesn’t necessarily cost a fortune and implement and tweak it to get stellar results. Some people can not accept that the same can be true of Tripath chips.. oh well ! It's not a response i expected in a forum like this given that front loaded horn owners have at least at some stage had an open mind.
Perhaps it is because I am getting into fiery realms when I mention that one can still be happy without tubes that arena is known to be defensive and mercilessly punishing... however I suspect it is more because I didn't recommend the same thing as you did Bert? I trust you didn't take offence.

Anyway, I was never trying to tell anyone that their amps are not the best in the world, only passing on my opinion of the Sig 30 to someone who asked.

Bert, on a side note, ever thought of offering a Orphean to 6-moons for a review?

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pssttt..........don't tell that bert, he caNot hear that, otherwise i will not be able to send srajan my future wood tractrix horns with bert's bms drivers and filters , he wont review it anymore...kk....

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Hi Fu_man,

yeah, that was kind of my point... not all BMS drivers are going to sound the same - depending on how they are implemented... not all T amps will sound the same either

So true but I haven't heard a good T-amp yet that beats my "standard" tubes... time will tell :wink:

OMG you don't know how much I want to! If you ever sell one to anyone in New Zealand, please ask them that if they would be willing to demo it to contact me...I'll offer to take my Sig 30 around for them to trial! :wink:

There isn't any in New Zealand yet, not even close! Just get them yourself and you'll never want to go back... :grin:

... Some people can not accept that the same can be true of Tripath chips.. oh well ! It's not a response i expected in a forum like this given that front loaded horn owners have at least at some stage had an open mind.

You will not only find front loaded horn users around here (pity for them but true...).

... however I suspect it is more because I didn't recommend the same thing as you did Bert? I trust you didn't take offence.

No offence taken, anybody can share their own view on this matter. Similar to what I am doing all the time.... most important is that people listen themselves but the problem is that this is not always possible.

Things people do seem to forget is that the sound they hear is not only the amp, the speaker, the wiring, the source but the whole system. What is best for one system is something else for another system (and taste). Don't forget that there are people who paid a lot of money for their tube amplifier, no way that a cheap T Amp can ever sound better!!!!

Audiophiles not trusting their own ears but relying most on reviews, price tags..., remember?

Bert, on a side note, ever thought of offering a Orphean to 6-moons for a review?

Only when I feel that I want to sell more (commercially thinking but that's somebody else talking than me...) someday they will hear it on a show when I will go out for a demo with the Orpheans though. In the meantime you'll have to do it with customers reviews which are in my book the most relevant ones...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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