cable recommendations for Orphean (Orphean)

by db @, Tuesday, January 23, 2007, 21:25 (4011 days ago)

Hi everybody

i am new to this forum and have a question or two or ...

i am building a system around the Orphean and ref. compact wit bd15 drivers.
i still look for an amp to show up for a reasonable price used on agon .
my short list is :

diy audio ladyday
welborne labs 45 or 300 b
wright 2a3
yamamoto
art audio px 25

any comments on these amps and other recommendations are welcome.

my orpheans are actually not even put together yet. i am still building the cabinets together with a friend and will get the filter for the orph probably this week.

i did some research on cabeling and came up with a lot of stuff. i am kind of overwhelmed and would like to ask what people are using as speaker cables with their oris system .
and more specific :
did someone try different cables from the filter to the orphean drivers?
from amp to the filter?
what kind?
what cables are you using for the bass / from the filter to the driver and amp to filter?

cables that i researched were:
neotech , vh audio , guerilla , art audio , cardas bulk cable , vampire bulk , bastanis bulk copper/silver , mapleshade , +++++

there are many different concepts , thick , thin, silver , copper , shielded or not , occ , hookup wire +++++.

please share your experience or opinion .
thanks
db

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recomendation to drive the orphean's

by angeloitacare, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 03:58 (4011 days ago) @ db

hi db
i've spoken to jim smith recently, a former importer of avantgarde hornspeakers in the u.s. he tried many tube amps. he recommend me viva audio amp's from italy. he compares it's performance to Lamm , some of the very finest and very expensive tube amp's. however, viva's are not cheap either. i bought the viva solista integrated amp, to drive my orpheans.

rds angelo

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NUFORCE REF 9SE

by GC, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 06:51 (4011 days ago) @ db
edited by GC, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 13:05

Hi db

i still look for an amp to show up for a reasonable price used on agon .
my short list is :

diy audio ladyday
welborne labs 45 or 300 b
wright 2a3
yamamoto
art audio px 25

any comments on these amps and other recommendations are welcome.

I recommend NUFORCE REF 9 SPECIAL EDITION

http://www.nuforce.com/

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce3/9se.html

These mono amps gave me a shock and tought me a great lesson. Knocked out my beloved Border Patrol 300BSE in all leagues.

But tastes are different aren't they?:grin:

GC

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NuForce 9SE?

by Bert @, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 17:15 (4010 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

But tastes are different aren't they? :grin:

I will have a listen to these tomorrow in the afternoon, let's listen to what it brings me in my system...

Do they need to "heat up" for changes in character?

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce 9SE?

by GC, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 17:21 (4010 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert

Do they need to "heat up" for changes in character?

Depends. I was told when new a 100 hours will do. When burned in they are in the game after 1 millisecond. No hesitation to offer the best from the very begining.

GC

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NUFORCE REF 9SE

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 23:16 (4010 days ago) @ GC

I recommend NUFORCE REF 9 SPECIAL EDITION

Hi GC,

Assuming that you heard your out of space SWINGs on Bert's Laydydays (and you remembered how they sounded), would you care to express the difference with the Nuforce in a technical sense ? With this I mean things like more neutral, faster, body, (now I change my voice :cool:) refinement, silkyness, vibes, standing waves, sweetspot ... and that kind of things.

If you can't recall or never heard the SWINGs on the Laydydays, please try to express all in an absolute sense.

If all is right, a nice workout might come from this. :wink:

Thanks,
Peter

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cable recommendations: Magnet wire

by giulio @, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 11:20 (4011 days ago) @ db

Magnet wire is cheap and good.

http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/Dancing/DrG_silverT.html

You can then upgrade to silver wire in ptfe tubing.

Spend the money save on the amplifier or better on music!

best
Giulio

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cable recommendations for Orphean

by Gasper, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 12:41 (4010 days ago) @ db

Hello!

I have try 0,3 mm thick copper cable (coil cable) isolated with clear lacquer for speaker cable. Wires were put between two Tesa paper tape to provide hardiness.

The results are very good, especially in hights and upper midrange, but for the bass I prefer more bulky cable.

Get first the appropiate amp and then experiment on cables.:good:

Regards,

Gasper.

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cable recommendations for Orphean

by Bert @, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 15:47 (4010 days ago) @ db

Hi db,

As mentioned by Gasper, first get the amps and use the wiring (interconnects and speaker cable) as "pepper and salt" to tune your system.

Wiring for me is using thick and short wire for the bass (stranded or not) and thin solid wire for the Orphean (preferable with cotton isolation). Use either copper or silver as core, never use silver plated (those are the worst!)

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Recommended amps for Orphean?

by db @, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 21:14 (4010 days ago) @ Bert

thanks everybody for the interesting replies.
i definetly look forward on Berts comments about the nuforce amps.

and yes i agree . amps come before cabeling . i just wanted to do some windowshopping research ....

what amps do you recommend and how do they compare in your opinion?

db

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NuForce?

by Bert @, Thursday, January 25, 2007, 18:13 (4009 days ago) @ db

Hi db,

i definetly look forward on Berts comments about the nuforce amps.

We've had a listen to the standard NuForce 9 this afternoon, the SE version was broken by a previous customer of the dealer...

I can be short this time.... not even close to what I am used to enjoy with the LadyDay's! I guess the SE version will be better but then it has to perform 300% more than the standard version to give me any thrill.

In a few weeks I will have a listen to these, I'll be back!

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce?

by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 12:36 (4008 days ago) @ Bert

Uops

I can be short this time.... not even close to what I am used to enjoy
with the LadyDay's! I guess the SE version will be better but then it has
to perform 300% more than the standard version to give me any thrill.

In a few weeks I will have a listen to these, I'll be back!

Ciao,

Bert


Either the samples of NF was out of order, or you and I simply began all over a sudden to have different listening references?

But here is a little riddle:


1) Nuforce need + 300% to equal the Ladyday
2) Border Petrol needs + 600% to equal the Nuforce
3) How many % is then Ladyday better than the Border Patrol?
4) What is the questioned % expressed in money if you regard the Border Patrol 2-3 times more expensive than the Ladyday?

However, my Border Patrol will never find it self back into my listening emvironment. Period.

After having solved the riddle, we may still conclude that taste has an awefull lot to to with ?


GC

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NuForce?

by Bert @, Friday, January 26, 2007, 12:56 (4008 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

I have learned that the money spend doesn't mean anything in this world regarding sound quality.

After having solved the riddle, we may still conclude that taste has an
awefull lot to to with ?

What I have heard yesterday (standard version, not the SE) has nothing to do with taste, the sound was simply inferior and bad. Differences similar to MP3 (highly compressed) and a good ripped WAV file. Besides that, there was a noise present smearing resolution...

No color of instruments, no ambiance, no "freedom" of sound, no dynamics and hardly close to reality. It was like listening to music in my car. Not involving at all giving me the need to do something usefull (answering e-mails, making some coffee for the guests, etc..).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce?

by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 13:08 (4008 days ago) @ Bert

Dear Bert

In that case I'll cut off my left arm and bet those amps were sick.

Give it another try and report to me wether you want my left arm send to a genetic institute to examine wether my remaining body also need a closer examination....:grin:


GC

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NuForce?

by Bert @, Friday, January 26, 2007, 13:29 (4008 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

In that case I'll cut off my left arm and bet those amps were sick.

Don't do that, you'll need your arm....

Give it another try and report to me wether you want my left arm send to a

I will have the NF9 SE soon to try but I do not expect it to bring the imrpovements over the standard version I am looking for.

Perhaps you need to have the BP's examined to check if these work okay? And perhaps get yourself a FireFace400 and GC? I have learned that a good source is most important to be able to value an audio system for real quality...

The BP's and the LD's are not too much different. I prefer the LD's more to my taste for what it is doing. Both the BP and the LD are much better than the NF's I had here yesterday though (I owned both the BP's and the LD's in the past and played with them enough to know about their differences).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce?

by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 14:05 (4008 days ago) @ Bert
edited by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 15:13

Hi Bert

I will have the NF9 SE soon to try but I do not expect it to bring the
imrpovements over the standard version I am looking for.

I hear you don't expect much from a re-try.

Perhaps you need to have the BP's examined to check if these work okay?
And perhaps get yourself a FireFace400 and GC? I have learned that a good
source is most important to be able to value an audio system for real
quality...

The BP's just cheked by one who can do such things. New tubes everywhere and just up running at it's best.
My CD player seems good enough to show tremendous differences between the amps here.

I continuesly let the BP's stand the steam from the NF's by comparing again. Always a good idea. And here one should be numb from top of head to heals not to vote for the NF's.

But this is and endless discussion leading nowhere.

GC

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NuForce?

by Bert @, Friday, January 26, 2007, 18:21 (4008 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

But this is and endless discussion leading nowhere.

Yes indeed, I guess you should have been here to be able to convince you from what we have heard...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce?

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, January 26, 2007, 20:13 (4008 days ago) @ GC

Dear GC,

Sorry that it's again me getting involved. Uhhm, I already was.
Please don't get mad, and please don't feel it as an attack.
For a rather long time we discussed what could be the problem with your setup, since you own the SWINGs. And maybe it was not for nothing that I asked you the questions in advance, ending with "could be an interesting workout" or whatever I said exactly.

Okay, let's try ...

My CD player seems good enough to show tremendous differences between the
amps here.

This is most probably your main "mistake". It is not, it will not, and (it seems) it can not. Please (please ?) try to think of it like this :
If Bert would start some playback with Foobar, there wouldn't be much difference with what the Nuforce produces (it would be better though). The moral should be : once the source is wrong nothing can be judged anymore, *and* that wrong source is your reference anyway.

Also, look at the man demoing the lot; he too wasn't convinced it was the best he ever heard, but he had a response : "this amp lets hear everything [smallprint] so your setup is wrong". But also : "I have never heard the amps through horn speakers".
And then : "that noise, well, that is common to a digital amp". The noise was so overwhelming that normal listening really wasn't possible (maybe Black Sabbath :wacko:). Also note that I've read about measuring tests which just couldn't be done because of this abnormal noise. Remember, this was not the SE.

The man was very objectively asked what the SE would bring more, but the only answers he had was about phenomena which were really not applicable. Also, he suggested to bring his own speaker cables ...
All that the man vented was "this is it, and it's your system that does it".
Right.

The sound was harsh, it came with an additional product, it sounded pure digital, the noise included swiching PSU products, the bass was superbadly all over the room, didn't go low anywhere, no instruments could be heard (I mean AT ALL), it was shouting and rumbling and ... in fact total crap.
Bert said he never heard something as bad as this, and I agree.

I am afraid it is the other way around as the man suggested earlier :
There are some speakers expressing all there is in it, and there is a player in front of all doing kind of the same.
At the very end Bert connected the LaydyDays, and I saw the man drop from his chair. He didn't say it, and he wasn't asked (he had to leave rather quickly and unexpectedly), but I saw in his eyes that he never heard something like that. He (and this is no joke !) stumbled one thing : yeah, this goes much lower ... I hear tubes now (and this, after he before told that at his home he used tubes). Go figure.
But this is wrong again, because an earlier "shootout" between the LadyDays and my SSs didn't prove any tube sound from Bert's LDs. There was a difference, but small and far more in the highs.

If you didn't buy them yet, PLEASE don't. You will be so dissatisfied lateron ...

Regards,
Peter

PS: Yes I was there too. :cool:

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cable recommendations for Orphean

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 23:03 (4010 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Wiring for me is using thick and short wire for the bass (stranded or not)
and thin solid wire for the Orphean (preferable with cotton isolation). Use
either copper or silver as core, never use silver plated (those are the
worst!)

... which tells nothing about the length of the wireing to the Orpheans.
Remember you rolling out quite a length of this "stupid" thin wire (avoiding skinning effects), me lateron not being able to find a better setup just because my wires (yes, wires, not cables :eek:) were TOO SHORT ?

I think those wires were approximately 1,5 meters ? (towards the filter that was, the filter being on the floor).
Bert, do you recognize this (in fact too long) length as being applied on purpose by you ?

Peter

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Everything has its influence..

by Bert @, Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 23:45 (4010 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

Bert, do you recognize this (in fact too long) length as being applied on purpose by you ?

A certain "effect" a cable has gets stronger with more length, it is impossible to state which precise length a cable needs for optimal performance but it has its influence. It also depends on the surroundings (radiating things picked up by the wire and how sensitive the construction of the cable is for that). The length used on that filter was only that long to be able to reach the driver... perhaps that the length luckely did filter out some aNoying things picked up from the air and that the shorter one didn't filter at all...

I usually use shielded wire (one end connected to earth) to prevent that problem to happen.

The Kemp Elektroniks loudspeaker cable is built-up like that and is still my preference. The wiring at your place was used because there wasn't much else around...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Everything has its influence..

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Thursday, January 25, 2007, 00:02 (4010 days ago) @ Bert

The wiring at your place was used because there wasn't much
else around...

But I had some kilometers at home of any kind, including barbered wire ?
:cry::

Thanks for explaining Bert.
Peter

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