NuForce talks (Off Topic)

by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 21:45 (4007 days ago)
edited by GC, Friday, January 26, 2007, 21:57

Dear Peter and dear Bert...

I've moved this thread to a dedicated one.

Leaving a door sligthly open to in particular the point about the source of music and what it does. I agree so far that it means a lot.

But but but, my dear fiends. This is neither what I am hearing or what you both heard. We are of the track with those amps.

Now just one only comment about the source for now:

You can hear differences between different amps even the source is a drop dead lausy CD player trying to get it's message through a laser reader etc.

(BTW. I'm not emotional about audio. So shoot.)

What you have heard re. the NuForce amps must come from a different phenomenon. Either the amps were damaged, both of them. Or you did not pay respect or attention to the special requirements for feeding them with AC power.
I had prior to acheving the good sound I speak about so many troubles re. supplying them correctly with the mains. I had no prior experience of such character. This was and still is really crazy. Very crazy.

Here I have AC power cables, DC-terminators and conditioners from Kemp. Connect the Nuforce to the AC supply on the conditioner and you will experience clutter and noice like hell. Connect both amps to the unconditioned Belgrade mains and one channel closes down on the SWINGs. SWINGs are completely silent, but in one channel only!!!
Connect another speaker of other brand than SWINGs and the dead channel starts playing.
Connect one amp to the conditioner and one to the Belgrade mains and everething runs noiseless and sound gorgeous. (However the NF block connected to the conditioner generates a little hizz, but does sound great.)
Now you explain me that?

I have a certain feeling that in Berts showroom set-up you had some of those problems as well, but not the time to find out why the NF sounded like shit..
I was and still am very confused about those phenomenons, but relate it to the switch-mode layout and such supplies sensitivities to ground issues.

I would for sure hear the same crap comming out your place, but then you will for sure also hear the heavenly sounds emitting in my room.

It just must be so.

What to say.


GC:grin:

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NuForce talks

by Bert @, Friday, January 26, 2007, 22:09 (4007 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

What you have heard re. the NuForce amps must come from a different
phenomenon. Either the amps were damaged, both of them. Or you did not pay
respect or attention to the special requirements for feeding them with AC
power.

Good that you mentioned this, and we did pay attention to the AC. It should not be connected to a mains filter as explained by the dealer and we didn't but we used some simple power cords and connected that to a simple cheap AC multi mains socket.

I just checked again (remembering how it was connected) and guess what, the only multi mains socket thing ( I have two of them under the shelf) that is connected with the mains filter was the one we've used with the NuForce.... :blush:

Great, then we still do not know anything I guess. Great that these were not the SE's so we have another change with those but then connected to the mains differently...

You should have mentioned your mains problems with the NF's before I tried them here within the little time we've had. The SE's will be here longer to play around though and hopefully we then get the same results you have...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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NuForce talks

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, January 26, 2007, 23:57 (4007 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

( http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=12340&page=0&category=0&order=last_a... :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: )

Concluded : We were trying very hard to find out what was wrong, and the salesman wasn't very helpful. For now we must trust *you*, and as I said before : aferwards we were talking a long time how it could be possible that you judge the NuFore just to be very good. :friends:

I'm not full of trust, but we agreed that the SE's can stay for several days, so we will get the bugger.

Peter
:evil:

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NuForce talks

by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 07:14 (4007 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 09:19

Hi Peter

http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=12340&page=0&category=0&order=last_a...
:swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: )

No that problem is not solved yet. I understand you were making a longer post and....uoops..gone!:agressive:

Concluded : We were trying very hard to find out what was wrong, and the
salesman wasn't very helpful. For now we must trust *you*, and as I said
before : aferwards we were talking a long time how it could be possible
that you judge the NuFore just to be very good. :friends:

You can trust me. And I trust you. We are talking about some outcomes that are simply too different to get any sence out of it.
And for once I will "defend" :blush: all reviewers saying this is the best. How could they recomend a sound that is so scary lausy screaming howling useless to anyone. It caNot be they are lyeing that much?:confused:

That amp caused me my lifes headache re. AC and grounding. The only thing I did not try out yet is to play from a different source than my TVC. I have been forced to use that, because 2V RMS from my DAC directly into the NF would have been :teasing:

I will leave my findings on this thread. :read:

I will also call the friendly Mr. Jason at NF USA to enlighten us.

GC:cool:


PS! Just to get one thing precised. I'm also playing on the 9, not the SE who's said to be even better.
I have not ordered a SE yet until all AC questions are answered and solved.

PS!PS! And you know me that well that my mission recomending the NF's is neither commercial or even close to religious. I don't care from what, whom or where good and bad sound comes from. Just good sound comes. :yes:

My terrible long praisings of the SWINGs sound on this forum were driven by one fact only: I have never heard a speaker system that good (subjectively). I just had to get the preassure out and therefore spilled a lot of words in these topics. :heart:

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 11:02 (4007 days ago) @ GC

Dear GC,

[loooooong]

PS! Just to get one thing precised. I'm also playing on the 9, not the SE
who's said to be even better.

Whaaaaat ?!!?!
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't know that.
Hmm ... so now we're talking about the exact same product, that changes things ...

Well, then we must make a happy thread of this. :prankster:

And for once I will "defend" :blush: all reviewers saying this is the
best. How could they recomend a sound that is so scary lausy screaming
howling useless to anyone. It caNot be they are lyeing that
much?:confused:

Somehow I can't find these. Note though that I read very different opposed to normal human being, monkeys and the like. So, I find reviews allright, but judge them as biased, commercial, etc. I don't mean in general, I mean the NuForce. For fun GC, you could point me to such a review, and I can try to explain how to read it.
Might you come up with 6moons : there's nothing there (SE). Just nothing. It could well be that they didn't even connect it. Just an example.
Don't say that 6moons is trustworthy, because *any* reviewer raving about the best product each next month, is just not. Can't be for statistical reasons. :blrrr:

Remember, we turned this into a happy thread (well, I did), but I could also ask this question :
"How can it be that someone is happy with no matter what amp if he is using another component in te chain which makes the sound worse always". I won't refer to the by now boring two letter word, so this time I refer to horn speakers, let's say, the SWING. Now suppose you have the SWING and I have a Thiel or whatever $10,000+ loudspeaker, and I bought this amp and rave about it's clarity, openness, effortlessness, distortion-free sound, beautiful cymbals, unheard lows, very good staging, tears in thee eyes before unheard playback. Would you, owner of the SWINGs, even START to believe the trustworthyness of that person ?

HE JUST CAN'T BE RIGHT BECAUSE HE IS PROVEN UNABLE TO HEAR IT ALL.

The only thing happened is that this person is now more happy than before.
With you GC it is the same. You own/use the SWINGs but you can never rave about proper sound, because you just don't have the proper playback means. And I say it once more : when using "normal" playback means, things start to sound like the NuForce. Please read this sentence once more, because it tells that one way or the other, you most probably listened to the same we heard, because the player already does it to you.

But this is a happy thread, and we must have trust. So we do.

There is a rather simple test anyone can apply with enough horsepower in the amps to blow out the windows. Remember to use a digital source (hence no turntable) :

Preferrably use a 112dB or more speaker. Now turn up the volume so loud you will never normally listen to. Btw, keep in mind the previous sentence, because already in there is the crux.

Okay, in my case that would be 4 x 130 continues Watts the volume near 12 oclock into the SWINGs. It would produce aeroplane like SPL ...
Assumed you can bear it on the sweetspot, start walking around in the room.

If all is okay, nothing hurts your ears with any kind of music, you do not encounter standing waves (except less than approx 1m from walls), and in fact you could turn up the volume further if you'd feel the need.

Now I challenge you, in fact anyone to do that. I know *I* can do it, and I know if some track hurts my ears (where it well can be that lots do not), something is wrong somewhere (like the experience of matching the SWINGs + filters to my SS system).
There are no standing waves in my (untreated in fact too large) room, when *all* is right.

Now be honest to yourself, set the NuForce at 12 oclock (ehh, twist the knob some 20 times) and tell us what you hear. Are you comfortable with it ?
Mind you, I am not suggesting the NuForce hurting your ears, I state that the CD player already does ...

It is the other way around just the same;
If you tell us that nothing hurts, you can be anywhere in the room without encountering standing basswaves or harshness in the highs for that matter (standing waves again).
If you have problems with the NuForce volume knob, just think of aeroplane levels ... :evil:
And don't forget : any music.

I "trust" it you won't come back with "no problems".
Anyway, keep this in mind as a theoretical reference which works in practice too. In my room it works. In Bert's rooms it works just the same.


One last thing I learned just the other day :
In these forums, several times I referred to Bert's listening room as being too damped to my ears, i.e. too "dry". Or for that same matter : too much unnatural focusing of bass waves (technically looking very sophisticated :confused:).
Now remember my theories about standing waves (I'm alone on that in this world so far), but at Bert's place we proved that it can work the other way around as well. A complete dry room (which you like or not) could turn into something I'm used to as natural (which is not complete dry), and which was caused by ... something wrong.

Stuff like this is so spooky and unbelieveable ...
Thus, my too hollow room does not produce (audible !) standing waves when all is right, and Bert's whatever room does not produce complete dry sound when all is right.

Nobody, just nobody will believe this, and many will judge this as complete b.s.
BUT :
When you accept this stuff just as true, and you start tweaking on this instead of tweaking until you hear nice sound, you'd have a practical not-subjective means to calibrate. Note that with "tweaking" I certainly don't mean DSP stuff or whatever unnatural means to get rid of standing waves (including basstraps etc.). You'd have to do one thing only : reproduce music as it's on the source.

Since this is my theory, and since it really works like that, I could prove the other way around so - so easy. It really doesn't matter much which component to use in order to destroy the sound. No, produce standing waves, or even the opposite (like what happened to Bert's room ? -> difficult to explain to myself).

That amp caused me my lifes headache re. AC and grounding. The only thing
I did not try out yet is to play from a different source than my TVC.

We did, it got worse.
Btw, did you try to watch television with the amp playing ? the thing is radiating as hell. Knowing this, it becomes very hard to think of good sound hence the thing not influencing everyting around it.
The device IMO is illegally CE branded, and is improperly grounded as well (wrong design).

Regards,
Peter

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NuForce talks

by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 11:44 (4007 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 12:16

Dear Peter


Dear GC,

[loooooong]


Mine too...

PS! Just to get one thing precised. I'm also playing on the 9, not the SE
who's said to be even better.

Whaaaaat ?!!?!
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't know that.
Hmm ... so now we're talking about the exact same product, that changes things ...

Well I thougt I mentioned that? No time for checking now.

Well, then we must make a happy thread of this.

It's already happy

And for once I will "defend" all reviewers saying this is the
best. How could they recomend a sound that is so scary lausy screaming
howling useless to anyone. It caNot be they are lyeing that
much?

Somehow I can't find these. Note though that I read very different opposed to normal human being, monkeys and the like. So, I find reviews allright, but judge them as biased, commercial, etc. I don't mean in general, I mean the NuForce. For fun GC, you could point me to such a review, and I can try to explain how to read it.
Might you come up with 6moons : there's nothing there (SE). Just nothing. It could well be that they didn't even connect it. Just an example.
Don't say that 6moons is trustworthy, because *any* reviewer raving about the best product each next month, is just not. Can't be for statistical reasons.

Well if you are interested in the untrustworthy 6moons review i posted the link here http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/index.php?id=12284
On the Nuforce.com you will find all reviews under the "home"...just link on.


Remember, we turned this into a happy thread (well, I did), but I could also ask this question :
"How can it be that someone is happy with no matter what amp if he is using another component in te chain which makes the sound worse always". I won't refer to the by now boring two letter word, so this time I refer to horn speakers, let's say, the SWING. Now suppose you have the SWING and I have a Thiel or whatever $10,000+ loudspeaker, and I bought this amp and rave about it's clarity, openness, effortlessness, distortion-free sound, beautiful cymbals, unheard lows, very good staging, tears in thee eyes before unheard playback. Would you, owner of the SWINGs, even START to believe the trustworthyness of that person ?


Well, if it's what he hears. Yes, I would beleive, but not be convinced, like you propably would'nt, that it would work the same way for me.


HE JUST CAN'T BE RIGHT BECAUSE HE IS PROVEN UNABLE TO HEAR IT ALL.

No. Yes. No....He might not hear it all, but he will hear something. Maybe I got it all wrong, but I was able to hear improvements for decades, eventhough my gear maybe not were objective.

The only thing happened is that this person is now more happy than before.


And that's a good thing.


With you GC it is the same. You own/use the SWINGs but you can never rave about proper sound, because you just don't have the proper playback means. And I say it once more : when using "normal" playback means, things start to sound like the NuForce. Please read this sentence once more, because it tells that one way or the other, you most probably listened to the same we heard, because the player already does it to you.

Arh....Peter. I know what you mean. But I will contest that if we don't pocess the ultimate player, we just have to consider all our playback gear as junk. Including the SWINGs. Including the music. Including the room. Including our self.
I'm not quite ready to hang myself because I don't have your GC


But this is a happy thread, and we must have trust. So we do.

There is a rather simple test anyone can apply with enough horsepower in the amps to blow out the windows. Remember to use a digital source (hence no turntable) :

Preferrably use a 112dB or more speaker. Now turn up the volume so loud you will never normally listen to. Btw, keep in mind the previous sentence, because already in there is the crux.

Okay, in my case that would be 4 x 130 continues Watts the volume near 12 oclock into the SWINGs. It would produce aeroplane like SPL ...
Assumed you can bear it on the sweetspot, start walking around in the room.

If all is okay, nothing hurts your ears with any kind of music, you do not encounter standing waves (except less than approx 1m from walls), and in fact you could turn up the volume further if you'd feel the need.

Now I challenge you, in fact anyone to do that. I know *I* can do it, and I know if some track hurts my ears (where it well can be that lots do not), something is wrong somewhere (like the experience of matching the SWINGs + filters to my SS system).
There are no standing waves in my (untreated in fact too large) room, when *all* is right.

Now be honest to yourself, set the NuForce at 12 oclock (ehh, twist the knob some 20 times) and tell us what you hear. Are you comfortable with it ?
Mind you, I am not suggesting the NuForce hurting your ears, I state that the CD player already does ...

Well I did something like that. Of course the NF could blow out the windows. The BP's can't simply do that and starts to blurr things arround it's clipping point.
The NF stays in my room cool until it clip's.


It is the other way around just the same;
If you tell us that nothing hurts, you can be anywhere in the room without encountering standing basswaves or harshness in the highs for that matter (standing waves again).
If you have problems with the NuForce volume knob, just think of aeroplane levels ...
And don't forget : any music.

I "trust" it you won't come back with "no problems".
Anyway, keep this in mind as a theoretical reference which works in practice too. In my room it works. In Bert's rooms it works just the same.

Well my problem was it was rather my ears started distorting, than anything else. I almost got tinitus after leaving the NF full juice into the SWINGs. Huh....

Btw, did you try to watch television with the amp playing ? the thing is radiating as hell. Knowing this, it becomes very hard to think of good sound hence the thing not influencing everyting around it.
The device IMO is illegally CE branded, and is improperly grounded as well (wrong design).


I did not try that. You might be rigth?

BTW. Didn't we agree that what we hear is the relative truth? You heard crap, I heard bliss. And we beleived in each others experience.
In between your lines I read that there is quite some more beleivable truth at Brinkersweeg than here at Bulevar Avnoja :wink:
? :grin:

Sorry for the layout of this response. I did not dare to keep the window open that long it takes to answer. I just copied and pasted from a word doc.

GC

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 13:16 (4007 days ago) @ GC

Hi GC,

Arh....Peter. I know what you mean. But I will contest that if we don't pocess the ultimate player, we just have to consider all our playback gear as junk. Including the SWINGs. Including the music. Including the room. >Including our self.
I'm not quite ready to hang myself because I don't have your GC

No no no. You are an exception already just because you *have* the SWINGs.
Of course it is a coincidence that it is my reference, but since it is anyway, that part in the chain is allright. :cool:

Then, it is not about considering as junk at all, but that we can't communicate anymore. Think of this :
Bert and I talked about what could in heaven's sake be the matter with your Border Patrol. I mean, after listening to the NuForce. IOW, for us there was no explanation why you judged the BP as far worse, except for us having the 9, while we thought you used the 9SE. Now this "hope" has gone as well. :cry:: (just joking a bit, because there's stuff to do on the PSU/Power thing, which was actually in the post which got deleted yesterday -> we spent much time on that because we could find that as the only cause of things being so wrong -> duNo what Bert in the mean time found).
The point is, where we just know by now how important the playback device is, we just can't tell what you hear. The same of course that you can't tell what we hear by now. Mind you, things have gotten so much improved the last 6 months or so, that I am 100% sure that Bert will judge his own playback from back then -WHICH YOU EVER BEFORE HEARD !!!- as complete crap. Go ask him !
So you both already can't communicate anymore.

The BP's can't simply do that and starts to blurr things arround it's clipping point.

So here's another story again (very sorry to be so "teaching" which I actually threw away at a certain age, but I like so much to make audio stuff clear without hearing it -> impossible ?) :
Can hardly be true, just because of my experiences. So it can be true, but it is highly unlikely. What 100% sure DOES happen, however, is that the SWINGs let you hear abnomalies from your system as a whole. Maybe you remember -at some stage- I was expressing on these forums about newer music becoming unbearable to listen to. This proved to be about something getting better (!!) in my setup while another thing still was wrong. Today that phenomenon doesn't exist enymore. But do not try to playback not bitperfect data anymore, because you'll get the creeps of it. One year ago I couldn't even hear the difference ...

So again, your BP could blurr around at higher levels, but since this is a respected brand chances are low. I know, a tube distorts, but IMHO nothing like blurring around. There wouldn't be so much difference with the 7WSE LaydyDay, and that doesn't blurr around ... Actually, in theory a SS starts to blurr around, talking about clipping points ...
What 100% sure (and please believe me) blurrs around as can be judged today, is something like Foobar in KS or ASIO streaming mode (which means it is bitperfect) which this whole world does not complain about. Want to hear blurring around, just come over. Wrong, stay at home. But in order to hear what can be achieved, please come over.

Arrghh, I must quit this impossible job.:wacko:

The NF stays in my room cool until it clip's.

Sounds (no pun intended) very strange, because it should blow out your windows first. I say : this can't be clipping (many other phenomena going on though).

Well my problem was it was rather my ears started distorting

You start to sound the same as the NF salesmen ...:grazy:
"yeah, but at this levels"
and it wasn't loud at all ...

Didn't we agree that what we hear is the relative truth?

Not when I was around. I am so much trying so state the opposite : it is possible to make that absolute, once you have the reference.
This latter, sadly, is the problem. But you are lucky, because you have at least half of it available : the SWINGs.

In between your lines I read that there is quite some more beleivable truth at Brinkersweeg than here at Bulevar Avnoja

That is correct. And this is only in between the lines because "we" realize that your judgement (and anyone's for that matter) must be respected. From this follows that we didn't talk a long time about what could be wrong with *you* but just what could be causing our so very different judgments, which in the end comes down to phylosofy as well, possibly religion, and hopefully a failure to our setup. Why ? well, because someone owning SWINGs has a headstart just for the sole decency of buying them.

"The workout can be interesting" ... see ? :whistle:
Peter

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by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 17:10 (4007 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 17:37

Hi Peter


Nice writing and many verbal pictures explains better than "Statements" :grin:

I'm not sure your "teachings" have reached your bad pupil down here..ha ha :holiday:

I'm 290.000 % sure that Bert made serious improvments since I consumed coffee and poluted the air with my cigars at Brinkersweg. It's 1/2 a year ago, I think. (Missing the cozy time with the Bert).
Even the SWINGs which arrived here were not quite the same as those I "approved" at that time. Some minor improvements sneaked in in the mean time until they arrived here.

If I sound like a salesman from NF can only be reasoned by I actually am a salesman. Exaguration and oversell/underdeliver are my merrits and most profound qualities he he he :prankster: (joking)

I'm trying to wake up USA to hear their story about the weird NF's and their crazy behaviour. Let's see.

Anyhow you will have a second chance to listen to these noise machines once you get the SE's. Then we will of course know more objectivly if we disagree on anything, should you have luck feeding them with the mains they so stubbern require. :cool:

Funny: One hour ago two guys left my home astonished by the sound here. They are not "Freaks", but ordinary behaving normal human beings.
They listened to the system with the BP's connected and expressed they never ever in their f..... life had heard anything like it. They said "It is unbeleivable what we witness here".
Now leaving the amping job to the NF's, which as I said is not even properly running here, they said: But know it's is much cleaner and much more understandable. As if somebody cleaned up the whole soundstage and left only pure air remaining. We don't know what to say?"

All directly quoted biased by a salesmans tounge.:lol:


GC

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 17:56 (4007 days ago) @ GC

Were that *your* cigars ? ohh, I thought it were my own !

Thank you GC, you are a sport.
I am sure Bert will be very seriously trying the SE's next time.

Oh, I was planning to save some annual 10,000 KWh because the NFs use 5 Watts only (that would be per hour :satisfied:).
So my interest is money only. Not quality.

Don't they say that the margin is received at the purchase ?

Peter

So my interest is money only. Not quality.

What did I say ? must need a drink. With cigar.

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by GC, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 19:20 (4007 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter....

Were that *your* cigars ? ohh, I thought it were my own !

Maybe all our smooking coated Berts showroom with tar. Might explain a lot.:evil:

Now you are almost admitting you are also drinking at Berts place. At least I did. In particular when certain experimental changes on the SWINGs resulted in the oposit of the wanted. After a few glasses everything sounded more acceptable.:cool: :drool: :wacko: :shout: more of :drinks: :teasing: :heat: and finally :sleepy:

I am sure Bert will be very seriously trying the SE's next time.

Ehh...hope he will find a little better sound. Otherwise only one thing to do:

:cool: :drool: :wacko: :shout: more of :drinks: :teasing: :heat: :sleepy:

Oh, I was planning to save some annual 10,000 KWh because the NFs use 5
Watts only (that would be per hour :satisfied:).
So my interest is money only. Not quality.

You sound like a CEO manager. Give the whole world a NF and we have solved the clima problem.
Now I sound like a politician....:clever:

Don't they say that the margin is received at the purchase ?

Who? NF sales staff? No, but now you gave them an idea, and now they have to file some revenue for you.:lol:

So my interest is money only. Not quality.

Now you sound like an employee in your company.........:bored:

What did I say ? must need a drink. With cigar.

I have lit one and opened the champagne long time ago. Cheers :drinks: :friends:


GC

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, January 27, 2007, 22:59 (4006 days ago) @ GC

You sound like a CEO manager.

:evil:

Now you sound like an employee in your company

:secret:

Some people are technically both.
:read: :scared1::tomatos:

Survivor :

:evil: :swoon: :evil: :swoon: :evil: :swoon: :evil: :swoon: :evil: :swoon: :evil: :swoon:

But what's a man without a woman.:nah:

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Call for Bert Assistance

by GC, Sunday, January 28, 2007, 06:50 (4006 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by GC, Sunday, January 28, 2007, 09:00

Dear Bert

As you maybe noticed, Peter and I will need more "Smileys".

We might contribute to lowering costs filing worddata if there were more options.

A few suggestions:

1) Lyeing salesman
2) Cigar smooking man
3) Bad sounding amplifier
4) Teacher
5) Religious
6) Grounding problems
7) Guy smashing CD players
8) Peter happy
10) GC happy


etc.....

GC

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