Amps? (Off Topic)
Does anyone have experience with the following amps:
ARC 300.2, CARY Audio R 306, Kharma MP150 and Okki Nokki?
I found this guy praising the Kharmas:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/kharma_mp150.htm
A friend of mine told me they were a better alternative to the NuForce project of mine. 
Last night I rearranged the amps from the floor to the shelf. Connected the cables as before.....and they signed with a modulated 130 db big squawke (don't know if this word excist) clusterbomb sounding blast into the room.
The house AC mains fuse went off.
I packed the troublesome fellows and were left in ignorance :confused:
GC
Amps?
by Bert 
, Monday, February 05, 2007, 10:13 (6284 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
A friend of mine told me they were a better alternative to the NuForce
project of mine.
Why should that a better alternative? Because of the price (must be better!), less AC problems or better sound?
I packed the troublesome fellows and were left in ignorance :confused:
Something must be good with these amps that allows the manufacturer to sell them despite their problems...
Ciao,
Bert
--
BD-Design - Only the Best!
Amps?
Hi Bert
Why should that a better alternative? Because of the price (must be
better!), less AC problems or better sound?
He mentioned the last two qualities.
Something must be good with these amps that allows the manufacturer to
sell them despite their problems...
My problem is that I have problems and obviously I'm the only one, exept you, Peter and ?
GC
Amps?
by Bert , Monday, February 05, 2007, 11:00 (6284 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
My problem is that I have problems and obviously I'm the only one, exept
you, Peter and ?
I didn't have problems with AC, although, the sound was **** so perhaps I did have a problem.
The distributor had a problem with the NF SE's he wanted to bring to me last time, one was broken (dead) when it came back from a customer...
I am sure that the Kharma will give less problems but the price tag is also the signature of Kharma....
Ciao,
Bert
--
BD-Design - Only the Best!
Amps?
Hi GC,
My problem is that I have problems and obviously I'm the only one,
exept
you, Peter and ?
I didn't have problems with AC, although, the sound was **** so perhaps I
did have a problem. >
The distributor had a problem with the NF SE's he wanted to bring to me
last time, one was broken (dead) when it came back from a customer...I am sure that the Kharma will give less problems but the price tag is
also the signature of Kharma....Ciao,
Bert
Hi Bert
Maybe this forum is not the "right" one for discussing those matters about SM D-class amps?
Seems none of the members/readers actually are using such an amp.
I was just triggered by moments of completely joy, when I heard the NF's behaving, the few moments it behaved. But they certainly gave me an appe* * *e for more. (
, Bert, your fzcuikn sjithy filter)
What I heard were a device extracting the very best from the SS and tube camps, + a lot lot more not found in either camp.
I will explore this new technology and probably catch one on the hook one day. Price no object.
That my moments with D-amps just revealed to me that the SWINGs is an open door to unheard of quality, is just another trigger.....
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by Cappy , Monday, February 05, 2007, 23:03 (6284 days ago) @ GC
edited by unknown, Monday, February 05, 2007, 23:43
GC,
For the price of the Kharmas you could probably get someone to build you a pair of Karnas instead,
Lots of power and still has that SET magic, I'm told. Probably more linear too than a Class D.
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
GC,
For the price of the Kharmas you could probably get someone to build you a
pair of Karnas instead,Lots of power and still has that SET magic, I'm told. Probably more
linear too than a Class D.
Hi Cappy
A very interesting story, but a bit too heavy for me for just comparing this amp. to others.
Should that be the amp for me, it had to undego quite some design overhaul. I mean the looks !!!!! :wacko:
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by Cappy , Thursday, February 08, 2007, 22:45 (6281 days ago) @ GC
I understand. Maybe there are some other Push-Pull DHTs around?
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by Cappy , Friday, February 09, 2007, 07:34 (6280 days ago) @ GC
I'm just trying to save you from going over to the dark side. You do know that the "D" in Class D stands for "dark side", don't you
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
I'm just trying to save you from going over to the dark side. You do know
that the "D" in Class D stands for "dark side", don't you
Ha ha Cappy. Wrong. It stands for La-D-y-D-ay.
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by PeterSt. 
, Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 12:52 (6280 days ago) @ GC
Huh ?
GC, now you really smoked too much.
Or the wrong stuff.
Peter
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
Huh ?
GC, now you really smoked too much.
Or the wrong stuff.Peter
Yep. Cigars. Glue. Nanotech. coated wheet from NL and plutonium.
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 13:50 (6280 days ago) @ GC
My dear GC,
It really looks like you are glogging up each and every thread in here. This is not fair. I want to help.
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam
Peter
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
My dear GC,
It really looks like you are glogging up each and every thread in here.
This is not fair. I want to help.http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam
Peter
Peter my :kiss:
Now you are talking. Finally.
What took you so long to come to the point?
Instead of sharing your real whereabouts in Amdam and your favorit occupation, you are filling us with **** about your GC player. (Again Bert. Your Deamon filter is full of **** )
Think BTW I saw you in Red Light Street the other evening....completely stoned 
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 15:21 (6280 days ago) @ GC
I just found something very odd;
Looking at all the nicknames here, may it be Bert, Cappy, GC, Soundcheck, Eddie, etc. etc., everyone is connected to "reperbahn". The only one google really can't find is PeterSt. I tried without dot as well.
Might I have become a homofile ?
Then I found that I misspelled reeperbahn. Man, am I glad ...
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
Then I found that I misspelled reeperbahn. Man, am I glad ...
Of course you found my name googeling that street. Beside smooking cigars, I have a small subsidiary doing business there. I also get most of my ideas about speakers when visiting my employees and collecting the revenues..
Funny so many checks comming in from your wallet 
GC
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 16:54 (6280 days ago) @ GC
edited by unknown, Friday, February 09, 2007, 17:04
Funny so many checks comming in from your wallet
I just heard a Turkish gang was arrested in Germany, using a.o. Yugoslavian women. I know, I know, this is former stuff, but I can tell you, the women were obsolete as well.
The thing is, there is this path from Hamburg to Turkey, and it goes right along your doorstep. Or you are in for a lot of folks tonight, or you are doomed to Britain, to name a place.
In Holland when we run out of luck, we always say "or you can sell your boat".
Now what if you don't have a boat ?
Well ?
Bad Kharma? Good Karna?
I just heard a Turkish gang was arrested in Germany, using a.o.
Yugoslavian women. I know, I know, this is former stuff, but I can tell
you, the women were obsolete as well.
I know you are following this interesting subject. My spyware installed on your computer tells me everything about your web behaviour.
The thing is, there is this path from Hamburg to Turkey, and it goes right
along your doorstep. Or you are in for a lot of folks tonight, or you are
doomed to Britain, to name a place.
Peter. Come to my place. Why did you think in the first place I settled down in such a big place. Because of the SWINGs?
In Holland when we run out of luck, we always say "or you can sell your
boat".
Now what if you don't have a boat ?
Well ?
Well? You want one of my yachts? 
The :fishy: from Beltrade
:
Amps?
by takman , Tuesday, February 06, 2007, 08:20 (6283 days ago) @ GC
I assume you saw the Absolute Sound article that compared a bunch of Class D amps (including the ARC, Cary, Nuforce, Kharma and a few others)? Pretty thorough article.
Amps?
Now another odd thing to observe...
I put a serious question from the beginning of this thread...and what happens?
The is 
and :teasing: me with all his lausy :idea:, because he's always completely :drinks:
But you are forgiven your :wacko:
:blrrr:
Okki
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 17:04 (6280 days ago) @ GC
Now another odd thing to observe...
I put a serious question from the beginning of this thread...and what
happens?
Now please come on. Anyone starting threads with Okki Nokkies should be banned to a NuForce factory right out in Denmark.
This forum is for serious people, and the only thing you do is
I don't want a pickle; I just wanna ride on my motorcickle
Right. You know what ? you should mount your SWINGs as sidebags, and put a Philips car radio with MP3 enclosure up front. Then you make a photograph of it, and coincitentally in this thread it's allowed. I'm sure.
:fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy:
Okki
Peter the :wacko:
I don't want a pickle; I just wanna ride on my motorcickle
As usual your'e not up-dated. More out-dated to be clear.
I modified the SWINGs into a primative custom-bike long time ago. The 150 horns acts like sort of wheels and the Orpheans as sort of an air intake for the carb. The engine is a T-amp I stole in a supermarket. And who has a T-amp nowadays, when the whole ****ing company went bankrupt? Pure retro.
Whatever I made of those speakers is now giving me the attention in the streets of BG that I really deserve. I kept the DB-Design logo visible to everyone. (We have to keep his business going forward. Right?)
Right. You know what ? you should mount your SWINGs as sidebags, and put a
Philips car radio with MP3 enclosure up front. Then you make a photograph
of it, and coincitentally in this thread it's allowed. I'm sure.
Again Peter, you are behind the inovations taking place in the real world.
My SWING bike has been spotted by the local mafia and found financed by a Dutch spooky ghost company carrying ownership by a guy who exagerates unorthodox fobias like writing programs for illegal copy/re-play features for iNocent tax-payers money.
You can only do one thing now. Hide yourself in the GC-players unzipped spy files and hope for the best.
Heard from Bert we are going to drink cognac and smoke cigars together in April, Brinkersweg. Await the worse. I might bring a player from my grandsons Duracell operated rabit bear. (please read "bear" and not "beer", as you usualy do) which outperforms your Walt Disney player.
Okki
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Friday, February 09, 2007, 19:12 (6280 days ago) @ GC
edited by unknown, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 00:01
Peter the :wacko:
Heard from Bert we are going to drink cognac and smoke cigars together in
April, Brinkersweg. Await the worse. I might bring a player from my
grandsons Duracell operated rabit bear. (please read "bear" and not
"beer", as you usualy do) which outperforms your Walt Disney player.
GC,
I don't think this is funny anymore; 
I have been very hard working on the Vista version of GC, and it really has more features than a Walt Disney player. I must admit though, that it's Duracell driven.
Anyway, it works with 12 bit input, which is only to make it play faster and which is *NO* drawback. It upconverts to 24bits first, which is an exact multiple of 12. Yeah, this is smart. From there it goes to 72, which is ... well, you get the hang of it.
Then it's got 5/4 pull down, with dual cutoff frequency (I'll keep that a secret).
![[image]](images/uploaded/image444.jpg)
Obviously the device is handheld, has a backlit display (well, not with empty batteries, sorry) and has all the features for friendly playback.
As you can see it can play from memory, and the best thing to come : it rips all the bits OTA from any CD in the neighbourhood, and that's litterally. This is done so that formally you ARE NOT COPYING the data. It's just ripped of the source CD's, which legally comes to stealing from the neighbours, but that's another matter.
It's memory is inifite. That is, once it becomes full, there's the % key, and the numeric pad allows any amount of compression you wish for. Here too the 12 bit NATIVE (!!) operation comes handy.
You'll find a mute button which of course is to be expected from a good player, but that is really not what I wanted to express; look at the right top of the keyboard ... well, what do you see ? huh ? 
man, you never saw this ...
With this GT button, you can accellerate the lot as much as you want. Press 1 x is 2x, press 2 x is 4x, press 3x is 8x, well, you get it I think. Best of all is that 5/4 pull down keeps on working !!! Yeah, I wasn't spending all this time for nothing.
There's many options behind the numeric keys. I did not program any yet, but think of stuff like printing music notes real time (there's a high speed pragma printer at the back), zooming, karaoke, supercar sounds, alarmclock, anything.
Might you have good ideas to implement, please say so. It's not hard to program, while it runs on business basic+, the reverse engineered foundation of Linux as you might now.
So please, this is NOT a Disney player.
:wacko: Regards :wacko:
Okki
Ok Peter.
Fun is over.
Just playing with how much "steam" the thread could take. And...you are keeping it up.
I didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. Especially not yours. And obviously I didn't. 
From now on I'll behave my self. 
Sorry Peter. But give me the GC with an option with Panasonic batteries. I'll pay what it takes.
I'll sell my yachts. Tear out the player in my grandsons beer bear and send it by mail. I just want that option.
From the last number of Donald Duck, I saw Mickey Mouse upgrading his player that way. Completely controled and governed by "Magazine told me to" obeying devotee behaviour, I must be the first to own that feature.
Your player could improve further looking like a retro bike with gas throttle locker, heal and toe gear swift, screaming eagle exhaust pipes and magazine for snow.
What? Isn't it Yahooo Mayall playing his blues from my old CD player and toxicated amp sounding in my livingroom? God **** yes. I have to run...he might spot my minibar.
Good Boy
GC
Okki Nokki Gokki Wokki
What? Isn't it Yahooo Mayall playing his blues from my old CD player and
toxicated amp sounding in my livingroom? God **** yes. I have to run...he
might spot my minibar.
Morning :teasing:
The good nights sleep helped curing the great shock I had yesterday evening.
Running away from the PC and the fun teasing Peters player, just to find that it was not at all John Mayall playing the blues, but a true throughout digital recording of a gospel choire from the Shetland Islands caughing in a Neutric mike. But I only realised that by looking at the CD front cover.
Then I saw, which I completely forgot, that I had connected my SET amp again.
The false music prophet cheated me again.
Would never have happened with a NuForce.
Sorry for this insulting interuption of my chikane of your noble player Peter.
But you know what. In April Bert shall fix a dedicated labtop with your player, have a FireFace ready and a cost no object HDD filled with grusome music....I'll be around in the best coffeeshop in Nuunspet. Meet me there.
GC
Amps?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Saturday, February 10, 2007, 10:40 (6279 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
I found this guy praising the Kharmas:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/kharma_mp150.htm
Since your ever so trustworthy advises on amps :bey:, last monday (when you posted this) I read the article, and immediately started looking for a bunch of these in my neighbourhood. I even found a pair for sale, mailed the seller, and within the hour he called me that he had already sold them.
However, I was on the phone with him for nearly an hour, and we a.o. we talked about the class D stuff;
The guy lives by buying amps and everything, and after judging for a couple of months he sells it again.
Since he already sold the Kharma's I could bring him to speak freely. He directly or implicitly made clear :
Although the Kharma's surely are not bad, for him there is not any indication that they, or any other class D hype amp for that matter, is better than the "old" stuff. Note that amongst his current selling items there's also thingy's like the Kronzilla which btw really might be something for you (the tubes are milk bottle size).
Also, my "research" on the class D subject, seems to show that these amps live in their own world of "cheap" and DIY areas with a high value for money reatio, but which clearly to me does *not* mean it might (!) be good for me and you in absolute sense.
For example, any itself respecting Audio store does not sell class D stuff, or it must be hard soldered in the insides of a subwoofer. Worse, nobody sells these things overhere (though I must be careful, because "everybody" might buy from the internet and sell these days, but that's different from stores doing it).
For me the theoretical advantages of the Kharma would be that this does *not* have a switching PSU, and I think that is about all (it doesn't feedback I think). Yeah, its power consumption, which BTW would really something to get me going for such an amp. But hey, what about the sound.
It is really a pitty I couldn't get the Kharma's, because now, so far, the status remains that the class D (or "T") come to me as a failure. Just by the two experiences to far (which would be the NuForce and the Sonic T-amp).
I keep on thinking that the Red Wine matchbox can do jobs which other of that class amps don't, just because its battery design, which for me somehow feels as the only solution to the 1mm2 capacitors needed for those designs. In the end I think it's a (working) placebo because of the weight the batteries add. Anyway, this one too can't be gotten here that I know of.
Maybe this forum is not the "right" one for discussing those matters about
SM D-class amps?
Seems none of the members/readers actually are using such an amp.
... most probably because of forementioned reasons. However, I think Klaus has something like a T-class.
What, actually, is our problem ?
It looks like several of us are looking for better amps;
For me, the following reasons account :
1. Less power comsumption at 24/7
2. Better theory of operation.
Ad 2.
I do *not* feel any lack of quality. Just NOT. It took me over a full year to select my current dual stereo A10 Dusons former AudioAnalyse) some 15 years ago, them being the most neutral and capable of driving my 87dB almost former Infinity's. Note : might someone want to buy them, they will be for sale whenever I've found what I want.
What I want is full class A, and no feedback (the Dusons are A/B, btw theoretically operating at A with 112dB speakers behind them.
Again, I do not feel any lack of quality.
If I may speak for Bert, also looking for something else, he is looking for more power. Or better, more headroom. I have this headroom (4 x 140W RMS into 8 Ohm), and it brings something that's lacking a 7W 300B.
Note that, having everything rather right around the amps, further differences between my SS and Bert's LaydyDays are hard to determine at comparing them side by side (which we did the other day).
Why do I say the above ? well, because something has creeped into my mind that the differences between amps are minor, once you have the other stuff right. The stage doesn't differ, the (micro) information does not, the character of the sound does hardly (the highs are slightly different, and what's noticed further is, in our opninion, caused by more headroom in my amps), differences in timbre and the like just are a hoax (and merely caused by the source and the speakers), etc. etc.
Or ... my SS and Bert's tubes must sound coincidentally the same, in which coincidence I don't believe.
Similar to my reasons of power consumption, are Bert's reasons for tubes getting end of life, that being the most sneaky phenomenon I personally wouldn't be able to live with ("could it be caused by too old tubes ?").
Preliminary conclusion of the above is, that *if* "we" would be able to find a class D amp outperforming (or equalling) what we have now, it would suit you all. Just for the sole reason amps don't matter much as long as the theory of operation is correct, *and* you don't overdrive them.
But sadly the point is so far : the class D amps differ so much in theory of operation, that they DO differ from my amp the least ...
If only there would be a huge source of those things around here ...
Peter
Amps?
Peter
You are underlining what actually might be the case about all these new fidelities.
I can judge only fom my two alternative amps. The Classe SS 40 kg bulk amp and my SET 300B.
That was why I was looking for a second opinion. And best opinion from someone having the same speakers as me.
Arn't these Kharma things, comming in both different colors and odeurs, produced in NL? Can you get a sample and check those out?
GC
Amps?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Saturday, February 10, 2007, 11:25 (6279 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
Yes, they are Dutch, with one dealer risiding 1,5 hours drive at best from my place. Somehow I always want things "now", and today I can't spend the time. During the week "at best" becomes 2,5 hours, which totals 5 hours vv and I don't even start thinking of that.
Peter
Amps?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Saturday, February 10, 2007, 11:28 (6279 days ago) @ GC
But ...
My research just brought me to another concept ...
I'm not sure yet whether it can do less than 1KW ... would that be a problem for you ?
Going to grab the phone now, but I'm afraid this is something for office hours.
Amps?
But ...
My research just brought me to another concept ...
And?
I'm not sure yet whether it can do less than 1KW ... would that be a
problem for you ?
1000 watts is no problem as long as the first few are ok sounding.
Going to grab the phone now, but I'm afraid this is something for office
hours.
GC
Amps?
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Sunday, February 11, 2007, 13:24 (6278 days ago) @ GC
And?
Well GC, there's some more to it I'm afraid;
24 hours reading concepts and stuff later, I know now that anybody "just buying a class D" is stupid. Even after listening. Too many things involved that can go wrong ...
For that matter there's 2 or 3 concepts appreciated as good (no, WOW ! and outclassing everything on earth), and certainly your NuForce is not amongst them (nor anything else you'd know about).
Tomorrow I will make some phonecalls in order to find out what actually can gotten hold of.
One important note for understanding :
The principles of a class D amplifier come to nothing more or less as a normal DAC (which btw does not mean it *is* about a DAC). With this I say (and state) : the differences / abnomalies / good things you can perceive from a class D amplifier are of the same magnitude (and influences depending on the concept used) as a DAC.
If your telephone contact did not feel any significant difference between
all the amps he tried, I tend to beleive that he doesn't pocess an
instrument that can show a difference. The speakers or even the ears?
I don't think I was clear on this; the only thing the man on the phone I tried to quote, was this :
Although the Kharma's surely are not bad, for him there is not any indication that they, or any other class D hype amp for that matter, is better than the "old" stuff.
The rest were my subjective thoughts. And those thoughts could well be wrong. Look :
So: If I might use a sort of termology from the photo world I should say
the D-amp shows a sound stage composed of Giga x Tera-pixels which turns
on and off at infinite speed. When they are on, they are on at laser
strength, when their off it is a dark hole in the universe. All nuances in
between are liniearly expressed.
Hence the extreme detailed sound picture.
Hence the extreme combinations of colors.
Hence the extreme contrast.
Hence each pixel can be heard seperately.
Hence the neighbour pixel and it's neighbour pixel can be heard at the
same time.
Hence all pixels can be percepted all at once or non at once and
everything in between.
Hence the, at the one side, extremely saturated soundstage, and at the
other side, drop dead silence when no signal is applied.
An incredible fast materialization of sound and it's emmidiate
disappearence again.
Subjectively low distortion.
The ability to treat the whole freq. spectar the same way.
Like a black box.
Sounding of nothing and still a suffix of sweetness.
I believe that now. I mean, after reading many perspectives like yours by now, I assume they are true. Also, this works the other way around, like reading about : the grainyness of a SS which I can recognize myself, without a reference to something without it (well, Bert's LDD -> highs are slightly different). Note though, that such a reference could only exist with a horn speaker which *also* is part of the (my) reference ... so all is not easy.
If you take my SET it adds, distracts, multiply and cross talks all the
above qualities in a way, that the sound picture show a kind of "Vanilla
Fudge" of everything.
Very good expressed IMO. But, in order not to accuse me of talking in your ways, I do not have this absolute reference so far, so this is about having to replace myself in that situation (which is VERY difficult, but of which I think I can do it).
Now I did not say that there is nothing better than a D-amp.
By now I start to believe it is true that nothing better exist, when using the proper design. That is, by the gratitude of theories I now read, only hoping the ultimate example of it can already be built or bought (we'll see about that tomorrow :dntknw
.
My speakers are sort of "warm" sounding. Slightly sweet.
Assuming you mean through the NuForce ... it's the character of the NuForce (just read that several times from different angles). It should be neutral, right ?
Also, my "research" on the class D subject, seems to show that these
amps
live in their own world of "cheap" and DIY areas with a high value for
money reatio, but which clearly to me does *not* mean it might (!) be
good
for me and you in absolute sense.
For example, any itself respecting Audio store does not sell class D
stuff, or it must be hard soldered in the insides of a subwoofer.
Worse,
nobody sells these things overhere (though I must be careful, because
"everybody" might buy from the internet and sell these days, but that's
different from stores doing it).
All that might just be pre-justices. It's rather cheap. It's small. It
hides away easily and don't produce heat.
Any mass product producer would stuff that into their boomy boxes.
As it turns out, it's a bit different;
First of all, to my findings, all the guru's and geeks being the founders of the class D phenomenon, reside in the DIY amp forums. As it seems, this is not about creating better products by it, but merely is about some means of commercial show off (which I do not intent to be negative, at all), and even is about the guys designing the circuits, those by now residing in the chips. IOW, any attempt to call this "cheap" is a plain wrong judgement. However, that the products don't seem to extend their ways farther than these forums, is another matter. By now I am as far that a EUR 700 ready built (stereo) amp outperforms everything what exists for class A or A/B, but which nobody on a DIY forum will do (buy it built), and instead they buy the components for EUR 150 or so.
Looking at the above, there will be no audio store selling stuff at 700 which can be put together in 1 day for 150 (unless your hour tariff is 150 of course), and there's no way such a store will try to get marging of, say, 50 on a 150 sales price, where before this was about 5000 on 15000.
Besides that, if it is already difficult for us lurking the Internet the whole day, what about those who don't ? there's just no market for the things you can buy at DIY Internet places, other than there.
That there's difficulty to judge the difference between the one with the PC speakers, and the one with the Swings, is clear, but once you're into this you'll KNOW the 10% of the persons from different angles, those 10% creating the technology. Not as a hype, but as real technology. Those who eventually created chips of their thoughts, IMO just are the ones to listen to, the least.
Before getting too enthusiast, I recall that 90% of the communities I was referring to, are those listening to MP3 through their PC speakers, and they will use the Tripath concept just because it costs EUR 30 or so. But also, because it's not so much off compared to the real thing.
Eventually the point is that the good stuff costs 10 times as much as the not so good stuff, but it will still only be EUR 300 then.
That no one sells the stuff might be reasoned by not many produces D-amps
in high-end classes???
With 95% chance or so that I'm right : the good stuff just exists since day before yesterday. But also, there is another thing again going on, not familliar to you, but very familiar to me :
This is about chips.
Chips have datasheets.
Chips are -in the end, meaning after a long process of design- very elementary things, which must again be interpreted bu means of the datasheets. This is not(hing) for settled amp producers. This is for someone like me, or a DAC designer for that matter. This is about high frequency emitting stuff (the Nuforce failing that miserably), *that* needing control not part of the datasheets. This is, in this special case, about a high interaction between the power supply and the chip hence overall design.
This is, as I found, about dedicated freelancers being able to make something of it. Btw, this is for DIY people ...
It is really a pitty I couldn't get the Kharma's, because now, so far,
the
status remains that the class D (or "T") come to me as a failure. Just
by
the two experiences to far (which would be the NuForce and the Sonic
T-amp).
... which are failures. Well, that would be too strong, but doing it right implies other products of which at least one exists right now, two more might exist (being better again), and one I can only hope it does (being the best for theories).
Please note that a "failure" as such, might mean the difference between being too clinical - and just right, whereas the first might bring you (GC) the resolution you encountered, plus some blown fuses. :shame:
What, actually, is our problem ?
Alcohol???
Don't make fun here; alcohol often makes things better. It could well be that even with a blown fuse the music sounds right !
More headroom here would also be funny, but not a "must have".
Oh yes. It just might bring you the authority you are looking for. However, not knowing the difference you won't be looking.
Note that "bass authority" can only be judged when not first something else was messing things up.
Yeah..we had that discussion. If all the playback system is
non-plus-ultra, the amp doesn't matter? This is, well I guess, not quite
what you mean?
To be honest, it was;
The source is IMO of magnitudes more importance, were it only for it being magnified by amplification. This, however does not mean an amp can destroy as well ... which (usually) can only be heard through hi-res speakers ...
With the SWINGs nothing but the best would be acceptable.
Right. Exactly the reason why I started my "buy a new amp" project. Being in lack of quality or not. I must be, although I can't hear it yet. Why can't I hear it ? no reference ... not at these levels of quality.
Peter
Ampsipampsi Diesel-ampsi?
Peter
If people are reading our exchanges they'll have to quite their job one day to have time enough.
I appreciate your engagement in the search for the Holy Gral. I have now at least one allied.
Just one small comment:
No I were refering to the SWING's warmth and sweetness. Not the NuForces. They are certainly not warm. They are just nothing + a little sweetness.
The SWINGs warmth and sweetness should not be mistaken for a boomy, colored and non-resolving Vanilla Fudge machine.
They are just vice grip top-resolving and concert hall like live speakers.
As sweet and warm as a concerthall. :heart:
Make no mistake: Bad records = bad sound.
Looking forward hearing your result of the telephone canvas campagne for news about the Diesel-amps.
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Monday, February 12, 2007, 15:33 (6277 days ago) @ GC
As it turns out, this is one of these "projects" that gives me the creeps.
Okay. Remember, I base myself on theories and much reading only;
The theories tell me that Mueta is a chip that might turn out to be the best there is. Might becaue as kind of promised before, it doesn't ecist yet. Well, it does as a chip, but there isn't any live amp around it yet.
I talked to the company, and they didn't even want to tell me names of companies working on it, although, so called, "every main high end manufacturer is". Well ... this sounds too easy, and it doesn't help really.
All is under NDA the man said, and that was the end of the conversation.
We should be able to encounter live products in 6 months time or so.
My second option would have been a product as a derival of the third option, but as far as I can notice, that died a preliminary death, because the man behind it (coming from Philips originally) started working at this "third" company after being on his own for a while, and I don't think he is allowed to work on this other product, until the commercial life span of the "third" product has come to an end. ... Which won't be soon, because it just exists for not so long ...
So here's the third and IMHO currently only option : UcD ... Universal class D.
Please note : With my current knowledge there are no real drawbacks on the design, however, the sole fact that its originator, Bruno Putzeys (Belgian) came up with a better design than his own UcD, tells me UcD is not the end of it.
Note that UcD is a principle[i/] of operation, designed by Bruno in Philips laboraties, the chip concerned residing in amps as the Van Medevoort MA240.. BUT :
As said earlier, this is the about chip only, while the stuff around it is so important. For that matter - and those who don't know might be startled a bit : right now Bruno is working at Hypex (Netherlands, Groningen), and the chip is contained in the UcD180, UcD400 and UcD700 modules ...
Right, Hypex is from the known subwoofer active modules, and I never would have looked at those when I not investigated this a bit.
To get the idea, here's the Hypex website : http://www.hypex.nl/ which is about the modules only, them being ready to "connect" into a rather random cabinet.
To get the better idea of *that*, here's the website of MM-Audio : http://www.mm-audio.nl/shop/ being a very lousy under construction webshop, and I think you have to click something on the right to get something showing.
Do note that the 180 needs mods anyway, and the 400 and 700 need to be in AD version. The 700 is not just 700Watts, but also contains better parts. I think that would be the one to go for.
Note that MM-Audio just shows you can buy the stuff ready built (like the 700 for EUR 750), and that the Hypex weshop shows that for EUR 255 + 225 = 480 you'll get the 700AD + powersupply (monoblock !), and it further needs a cabinet (and softstart module I think) + 1 day of work to build it (hardly any soldering).
[img]images/uploaded/image32.gif[/img] [img]images/uploaded/image33.gif[/img][img]images/uploaded/image209.jpg[/img]
Note that the right picture shows an assembled (mono 700AD) with a dedicated transformer. These are rather known (and proved) options, and getting the stuff from MM-Audio makes it even more easy.
I know, it doesn't look all 100% decent, but at the risk that this might be the best you can get, at a(n even ready built) very low price, makes me think I grab the phone again, and just give it a try.
Note that "officially", guys like us having an Orphean and some BD15 enclosure underneath it, need four of these guys. However, further investigation may lead to the 400AD being equally good (investigate the parts !), *and* them being housed in stereo enclosures.
[img]images/uploaded/image210.jpg[/img]
(note this is a 180; couldn't find a stereo picture of the 400).
Peter
PS: I didn't want to step over to this other thread. Maybe delete that GC ?
UcD
Hi Peter
The Pampers is deleted. Even no one had dumped anything in them. It could have been a smelly affair with that thread.
But your findings might have a smell of something good. I had however got a hint from a good friend of yours to stay away from Hypex. And as the good boy I am. I did.
Now, how in Gods name are we going to test all these goodies?
Can we gather the whole creepy merchandise at one time and have a sesssion in Nuunspet? I mean, can we send Bert in town with his doggy-walking, sauna boubble bathing....or must we have him wresteling with backorder speakers on the floor while the P&G's blow out the diaphragmes of his SWINGs?
Who will organize?
I'll pay the beers and the cigars.
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Monday, February 12, 2007, 16:25 (6277 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
First things first :
I had however got
a hint from a good friend of yours to stay away from Hypex.
Why ?
Btw, I have no friends that I know of.
Just my computers. 
ehh ...
UcD
Peter, I'll enlighten you a bit:
Hi GC,
First things first :
I had however got
a hint from a good friend of yours to stay away from Hypex.
Why ?
Btw, I have no friends that I know of.
Just my computers.
ehh ...
First thing firts: I come along mostly with dead people. They seems to like me the most.
Your "friend" (not the PC), the other one, just responded "Nah, not Hypex please!" to my question "You may of course also turn to your own countrymen who claims their D-amps are bla bla"
GC
UcD
by Bert , Monday, February 12, 2007, 16:52 (6277 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
I think it should be possible to have the Kharma's and the NF's here at the same time? Possible the Hypex too (if Peter is going to build a pair)...
Mmm, did Hypex loose their Switching Power supplies...?
Ciao,
Bert
--
BD-Design - Only the Best!
UcD
Hi GC,
I think it should be possible to have the Kharma's and the NF's here at
the same time? Possible the Hypex too (if Peter is going to build a
pair)...Mmm, did Hypex loose their Switching Power supplies...?
Ciao,
Bert
Hi Bert
It would be great if we could gather both the merchandise and the ears who's to suffer from the D-amping at the same time.
But I wouldn't mind a little more efficiency if you and Peter would test it out first. I trust your ears so much that we do not need to make a gathering just for that. I will come in April anyhow for the salvation of my playback system and of course to polute.
Hypex SM PS's. I don't know. Maybe they caNot spell the words anymore and were forced to terminate the production of them? It is Holland, U know.
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Tuesday, February 13, 2007, 00:20 (6277 days ago) @ GC
Hey you two ... the only thing I understand from your posts is SM. Or when PS is me ... then I understand two things of it.
Anyway, this afternoon I called this MM-Audio stuff, and just like their website doesn't respond, their phone doesn't either. What a world ...
Not 100% decent, I said.
Mmm, did Hypex loose their Switching Power supplies...?
Actually I don't know. What I do know that the emittance is least of all.
I think it should be possible to have the Kharma's and the NF's here at
the same time?
Whatever comes from the NuForce, please allow the lot to come with speaker cables; the salesman probably was too polite in saying he would bring his the next time, but of what I read, the NuForce just can't do without it (feedback at the speaker terminals or whatever voodoo this is about).
It would be great if we could gather both the merchandise and the ears
who's to suffer from the D-amping at the same time.
Damping merchandise ? man, you can bring marihuana if you can cope with the customs ... Did you, btw, ever examine the D'amping material in your Swings ?
DO NOT REMOVE THAT !
Just notice the smoke coming from that 2.5" hole ... Amused to breathe ...
Well, I can't make more sense of your both posts than to be objective ...
I'll try to get myself a pair of Hypes tomorrow, with the objective of (huh, what's in words) finding our current amps better. Is that a deal ?
I'll most probably end up with selling amps each other month, like so many do these days.
For now, 
:bey:
UcD
Like the reads the Bible...
Hey you two ... the only thing I understand from your posts is SM. Or when
PS is me ... then I understand two things of it.
SM is to my knowledge Sado Masocism which is the state of mind you reach listening to D-pampers, and PS is you or me. And suddently, with your help PSt, I also understand two things of what Bert and I is writing, which came as a big surprice. That is all together four things + VAT we understand, you and you and me and me, me and you. If Bert also understand a couple of things, God forbid it, we're on the way.
Anyway, this afternoon I called this MM-Audio stuff, and just like their
website doesn't respond, their phone doesn't either. What a world ...
Not 100% decent, I said.
Like calling my office or the NuForce team. There is nothing in the other end.
Mmm, did Hypex loose their Switching Power supplies...?
Actually I don't know. What I do know that the emittance is least of all.
If the case is they do not produce it anymore. Then yes.
I think it should be possible to have the Kharma's and the NF's here at
the same time?
> Whatever comes from the NuForce, please allow the lot to come with speaker
cables; the salesman probably was too polite in saying he would bring his
the next time, but of what I read, the NuForce just can't do without it
(feedback at the speaker terminals or whatever voodoo this is about).
You call that woodoo? Come on....:confused: I connected the NF's internal feedback cables directly to the SWINGs internal bracings, with a loop (VdH cable of course) to my espresso machine. That, my friends, grounds all SM emission. The damping factor of the NF's now showed 33,2 million. And suddently all the fun was gone. The good thing was that the coffee never tasted better.
It would be great if we could gather both the merchandise and the ears
who's to suffer from the D-amping at the same time.
Damping merchandise ? man, you can bring marihuana if you can cope with
the customs ... Did you, btw, ever examine the D'amping material in your
Swings ?
Wheet? Skunk? Custom Cleared in any coffee shop in Holland I heard. I beleive that this is the reason why so many odd products are comming out of your country.
I smooked some of the d-amping material in the SWINGs. That improves a lot
DO NOT REMOVE THAT !
Too late..
Just notice the smoke coming from that 2.5" hole ... Amused to breathe
...
Roger Waters dropped by yesterday evening. He was so surpriced with the breathe, that he thinks to re-launch his Quadro-fobia record again. But now with the studio fully equiped with GC-players, piano laqued high glossy double Orphean reference speakers and burning P-ampers. He said that the smoke from the speakers brought him much closer to the good old days at the stage. He promissed never ever again to produce a classic record and I started to like the guy again.
Well, I can't make more sense of your both posts than to be objective ...
I'll try to get myself a pair of Hypes tomorrow, with the objective of
(huh, what's in words) finding our current amps better. Is that a deal ?
Deal. If you run away with the Golden Palms and the Oscars with your old B'amp, don't be surpriced to see it disappear one dark night. You propably have your insurance paid?
I'll most probably end up with selling amps each other month, like so many
do these days.
Some are making a living of that...but most of them die :wink:
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Tuesday, February 13, 2007, 12:35 (6276 days ago) @ PeterSt.
Okay.
Just talked to the guys who were closed on mondays. Yeah, can happen.
If everything goes as planned I arranged for a couple of 700's;
He started about "listening", so I began about "at home then".
Right now he is looking for where to get some demo machines, because I don't think currently he has more than two for himself. However, I just did some vicious propositions via email, to get get four of them ...
Peter
UcD
Peter the
Good. Very good.
Now here is some news about the NF's.
I had some table tennis mail correspondance with the local distributor of NF. He says, that it is not possible to use a NF on active speakers. In this case the basses.
He explains that the speaker output on the NF is balanced and therefore doesn't like it.
He tried himself on active modules and they NF's are freaking out completely.
Also the NF manual tell the same story.
I asked Bert and he answered:
Hi GC,
It might be a problem if the NF has problems with an active bass or subwoofer. Shouldn't give any problems, many people do use a subwoofer!
If you disconnect the mains from the bass amps then it should not have any influence whatsoever (no voltage floating over ground from the amp, only from the NF).
You could turn the switch on the bass panel all the way to the left (or
right) so that you do not hear any bass. Then the filter and the amp is not connected to the speakers (also remove the RCA attenuation plug).
Ciao,
Bert
Bert, I did all that, and they still freaked.
GC
PS! 
Did you notice I struggeled through this post without adding any lunetic fun? That was really hard.
NUFORCE SWING DEVORCE
Hey Fellows
I did never take the time to read the NF manual. The Swing and the NF is a mission impossible.
From the first 5 pages in the manual you will learn that this combi woun't work.
Let's forget the NF project and concentrate on something else.
http://www.nuforce.com/support/download/Ref9-SE-8.5-manual.pdf
What a waste of time.
GC
NUFORCE SWING DEVORCE
by Bert , Tuesday, February 13, 2007, 14:24 (6276 days ago) @ GC
Hi GC,
There is one solution. Get another pair of the NF's...
Yeah, that would be overkill to use one NF as kind of pre-amp to drive the filter and then into the bass amplifier.
Mmm...
Ciao,
Bert
--
BD-Design - Only the Best!
NUFORCE SWING DEVORCE
Hi GC,
There is one solution. Get another pair of the NF's...
Yeah, that would be overkill to use one NF as kind of pre-amp to drive the
filter and then into the bass amplifier.Mmm...
Ciao,
Bert
Hi Bert
No way I will invest in 4 NF's except the BD amps are removed and that would solve the problem. And then the NF also have to be the winner of our D-amp contest.
And then I would not have a real SWING anymore 
But how to get the NF's to play with your SWINGs, except for the 4 pcs. solution?
GC
Divorce
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Tuesday, February 13, 2007, 16:18 (6276 days ago) @ GC
PS!
any lunetic fun? That was really hard.
Yea, we did !
We also noticed that you have TWO NuForce dedicated electrical bomb threads for Nuforce threading stuff.
Some people ... 
Divorce
PS!
any lunetic fun? That was really hard.
Yea, we did !
We also noticed that you have TWO NuForce dedicated electrical bomb
threads for Nuforce threading stuff.Some people ...
He he he...
Those amps were not mine.
Di-Force
Peter
I can re-baptise the two threads, so that I will not risk my life for some sniper around here.
Sound is to some a very delicate matter :nah: 
:blrrr: 
But for me it is more.. :drinks:
Halelujah
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Tuesday, February 13, 2007, 16:14 (6276 days ago) @ PeterSt.
Btw please note that in the background I talked to the man about our outragious speakers, players and the idiots behind the wheels.
So this is what happened after a small email conversation :
Most probably because I just urged to get me the best they could offer, a very special pair will be built (in fact, the best ever, and probably they will call it UcD700-GC :blrrr and we can keep it for a month.
If we then return it, it 'll cost EUR 50.
I know that the man behind it (from Hypex itself) is now let loose on this project, and he at last can apply his thoughts he has had for some years now. He is "allowed" to create the best amp ever, just because I asked for the best amp ever, also indicating the background as said in the beginning of this post, btw without mentioning BD so far.
From this already followed that now THEY are very interested in how their new best amp will sound on a superb system in a superb environment with cigars and cognac, so I invited them already just for the sake of getting things better if they appear to be not good.
Guys, we are dealing here with the IMO best knowledgeable group of people on the class D stuff, with even the founder of it amongst them.
I can't be sure what comes from it, but just blame me if it won't go. If nothing becomes of this, nothing will. Not now anyway.
Peter
And oh GC, if the picture of your living room starts popping up on the Internet other than in this forum, it might be because I started sending emails with your room attached to them. I thought this would help ad-hoc visitors to find you, so I made it an inside job.
UcD
Darling Peter 
Btw please note that in the background I talked to the man about our
outragious speakers, players and the idiots behind the wheels.So this is what happened after a small email conversation :
Most probably because I just urged to get me the best they could offer, a
very special pair will be built (in fact, the best ever, and probably they
will call it UcD700-GC :blrrr
If we then return it, it 'll cost EUR 50.I know that the man behind it (from Hypex itself) is now let loose
on this project, and he at last can apply his thoughts he has had for some
years now. He is "allowed" to create the best amp ever, just because I
asked for the best amp ever, also indicating the background as said in the
beginning of this post, btw without mentioning BD so far.From this already followed that now THEY are very interested in how their
new best amp will sound on a superb system in a superb environment with
cigars and cognac, so I invited them already just for the sake of getting
things better if they appear to be not good.Guys, we are dealing here with the IMO best knowledgeable group of people
on the class D stuff, with even the founder of it amongst them.
I can't be sure what comes from it, but just blame me if it won't go. If
nothing becomes of this, nothing will. Not now anyway.Peter
This is such a good post that I dare not to erase what you wrote. The only negative thing about it is, that you have to wrestle with me who's to pay the 50 bucks, should we not keep it. 
And oh GC, if the picture of your living room starts popping up on the
Internet other than in this forum, it might be because I started sending
emails with your room attached to them. I thought this would help ad-hoc
visitors to find you, so I made it an inside job.
Yeah...I found my livingroom exposed in Playboy. Be glad I didn't take any pictures when life is "high" here, and send those to you. Then I'll have to find them in the "PRIVATE" magazine.
You're wellcome to spam my livingroom around, sweethart :kiss:
GC
UcD
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 12:30 (6275 days ago) @ GC
Is it this guy?
http://www.hypex.nl/pics/psne.gif
What a Kharma he has.
Bwoahahahahahahaa
Now, although this is an official statement with positive sense, keep in mind that one day he will read this himself (if not already).
Also, putting all in the context of the competition, may let rise the price.
But of course, everyone will understand that it's best to have three paths at hand.
UcD
Is it this guy?
http://www.hypex.nl/pics/psne.gif
What a Kharma he has.
BwoahahahahahahaaNow, although this is an official statement with positive sense, keep in
mind that one day he will read this himself (if not already).
Also, putting all in the context of the competition, may let rise the
price.But of course, everyone will understand that it's best to have three paths
at hand.
Mr. Tricky...
How you can put it. Never thought to be a writer and earn a buck or two, selling puzzle stories to 'rs.
It's hard to earn a decent buck on this forum posting ideas and comments.
Three path bankrupted I heard.
I am terrible exited what Hypex come up with....
aahahahahahaowB
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 15:34 (6275 days ago) @ GC
It's hard to earn a decent buck on this forum posting ideas and comments.
But GC, that is because you forget the banners and other commercials !
Or is maybe Bert paying yuo for this ?
Three path bankrupted I heard.
Yep. I think you mentioned it before, but then I couldn't find it with my minimalistic Google knowladge. Sad ...
But hey Bert, you probaly got the last Sonic-T available ! Maybe this is your chance to get rich at last !
I am terrible exited what Hypex come up with....
You mean like a woman can be excited about her new husband ?
for a while ... ?
aahahahahahaowB
But it's not a Nuforce, my dear !
I have good news and bad news; I gave below both lists to Google :
GCuforce toast
GCuforce fire
GCuforce explosion
GCuForce harakiri
Hypex toast
Hypex fire
Hypex explosion
Hypex harakiri
Now it's up to you to find the news.
UcD
It's hard to earn a decent buck on this forum posting ideas and
comments.
But GC, that is because you forget the banners and other commercials
!
Or is maybe Bert paying yuo for this ?
As far as I know you spread banners of my hype-room around Share the revenue bucks with me....
Three path bankrupted I heard.
Yep. I think you mentioned it before, but then I couldn't find it with my
minimalistic Google knowladge. Sad ...
But hey Bert, you probaly got the last Sonic-T available ! Maybe this is
your chance to get rich at last !
Is Bert not rich? He has two dogs each 200 kg's. They cost. Wife and children, don't ask how many, he doesn't even know himself.
I am terrible exited what Hypex come up with....
He he...finally a little fun again
You mean like a woman can be excited about her new husband ?
for a while ... ?
When did that happen last time to you? :nah:
aahahahahahaowB
But it's not a Nuforce, my dear !
Thanks God it isn't. Sorry NF, the moments you played was just wonderfull. But why could you play from time to time, when your mam'n'dad say you can't? Naugthy amp
I have good news and bad news; I gave below both lists to Google :
Nuforce toast
Nuforce fire
Nuforce explosion
NuForce harakiri
Hypex toast
Hypex fire
Hypex explosion
Hypex harakiri
Yeah...The hypo sneeked in.
I Google'd this:
Peter 6-player
Peter 6-amp'uls a day
Peter 6-MooN untrust
Peter 6-5=12
Peter 6-igars
Ms. Peter 6-never
Ms. Peter 6-6 forum writer
Ms. Peter 6-9 never tried
Ms. Peter 6-a day keep NuForce away
Ms. Peter 6-kids is enough
But non of the above responded any real news.
GC
UcD
by PeterSt. , Netherlands, Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 16:53 (6275 days ago) @ GC
You mean like a woman can be excited about her new husband ?
for a while ... ?
When did that happen last time to you? :nah:
GC, you shouldn't abuse my disabilities.
Furthermore, the question of "when" is unrelated and inefficient. It's a question of how many times. From that, for some persons, the when can be estimated rather accurate.
:biglol:
UcD
GC, you shouldn't abuse (It is spelled "amuse") my disabilities.
Why not. You see my livingroom is as empty as your *******, and I just wanted to have a friend to share "everything" with.
Furthermore, the question of "when" is unrelated and inefficient. It's a
question of how many times. From that, for some persons, the when can be
estimated rather accurate.
Aha, so you really caNot remember...eih?
Remember my grandsons Duracell rabbit? The NuForce insane switch frequency? That's your style? :biglol:
GC
Amps?
Are you ready?...OK, here we go
Hi GC,
I found this guy praising the Kharmas:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/kharma_mp150.htm
Since your ever so trustworthy advises on amps :bey:, last monday (when
you posted this) I read the article, and immediately started looking for a
bunch of these in my neighbourhood. I even found a pair for sale, mailed
the seller, and within the hour he called me that he had already sold
them.
However, I was on the phone with him for nearly an hour, and we a.o. we
talked about the class D stuff;The guy lives by buying amps and everything, and after judging for a
couple of months he sells it again.
Since he already sold the Kharma's I could bring him to speak freely. He
directly or implicitly made clear :Although the Kharma's surely are not bad, for him there is not any
indication that they, or any other class D hype amp for that matter, is
better than the "old" stuff. Note that amongst his current selling items
there's also thingy's like the
Kronzilla
which btw really might be something for you (the tubes are milk bottle
size).
I would never defend any class GC being the best in general. I heard what I heard with the even sick NuForces and eventual sick SETs. I mean everything could be sick here?
I will give it a try to explain by words what I heard, even the risk of stealing from some one elses vocabulary excist.
So: If I might use a sort of termology from the photo world I should say the D-amp shows a sound stage composed of Giga x Tera-pixels which turns on and off at infinite speed. When they are on, they are on at laser strength, when their off it is a dark hole in the universe. All nuances in between are liniearly expressed.
Hence the extreme detailed sound picture.
Hence the extreme combinations of colors.
Hence the extreme contrast.
Hence each pixel can be heard seperately.
Hence the neighbour pixel and it's neighbour pixel can be heard at the same time.
Hence all pixels can be percepted all at once or non at once and everything in between.
Hence the, at the one side, extremely saturated soundstage, and at the other side, drop dead silence when no signal is applied.
An incredible fast materialization of sound and it's emmidiate disappearence again.
Subjectively low distortion.
The ability to treat the whole freq. spectar the same way.
Like a black box.
Sounding of nothing and still a suffix of sweetness.
If you take my SET it adds, distracts, multiply and cross talks all the above qualities in a way, that the sound picture show a kind of "Vanilla Fudge" of everything. It caNot pinpoint anything that clear and it involves itself non stop. You have to love it, to like it.
By direct comparison the SET is talking rubbish.
Leaving the SETs back into the system for some time you start to like it again....until the D-amp is back.
Now I did not say that there is nothing better than a D-amp. I simply don't know. But it is very hard for me to beleive a tubeamp would do the pixel example, no matter the price tag.
My speakers are sort of "warm" sounding. Sligtly sweet. Extremely transparent and drop dead dynamic. Low distortion and bla bla bla...
They show a very big difference between the amps pressent in this house. Regardless my outdated play back system. he he he...
If your telephone contact did not feel any significant difference between all the amps he tried, I tend to beleive that he doesn't pocess an instrument that can show a difference. The speakers or even the ears?
Also, my "research" on the class D subject, seems to show that these amps
live in their own world of "cheap" and DIY areas with a high value for
money reatio, but which clearly to me does *not* mean it might (!) be good
for me and you in absolute sense.
For example, any itself respecting Audio store does not sell class D
stuff, or it must be hard soldered in the insides of a subwoofer. Worse,
nobody sells these things overhere (though I must be careful, because
"everybody" might buy from the internet and sell these days, but that's
different from stores doing it).
All that might just be pre-justices. It's rather cheap. It's small. It hides away easily and don't produce heat.
Any mass product producer would stuff that into their boomy boxes.
That no one sells the stuff might be reasoned by not many produces D-amps in high-end classes???
For me the theoretical advantages of the Kharma would be that this does
*not* have a switching PSU, and I think that is about all (it doesn't
feedback I think). Yeah, its power consumption, which BTW would really
something to get me going for such an amp. But hey, what about the sound.It is really a pitty I couldn't get the Kharma's, because now, so far, the
status remains that the class D (or "T") come to me as a failure. Just by
the two experiences to far (which would be the NuForce and the Sonic
T-amp).I keep on thinking that the Red Wine matchbox can do jobs which other of
that class amps don't, just because its battery design, which for me
somehow feels as the only solution to the 1mm2 capacitors needed for those
designs. In the end I think it's a (working) placebo because of the weight
the batteries add. Anyway, this one too can't be gotten here that I know
of.
Well again Peter, I do not either really know on which shelf in my already cemented concervative world picture, I should put the D-amps.
But does it matter if they sound good. As good as any amp or even better?
What, actually, is our problem ?
Alcohol??? Stop kidding GC :embarressed:
It looks like several of us are looking for better amps;
For me, the following reasons account :1. Less power comsumption at 24/7
2. Better theory of operation.Ad 2.
I do *not* feel any lack of quality. Just NOT. It took me over a full year
to select my current dual stereo A10 Dusons former AudioAnalyse) some 15
years ago, them being the most neutral and capable of driving my 87dB
almost former Infinity's. Note : might someone want to buy them, they will
be for sale whenever I've found what I want.
What I want is full class A, and no feedback (the Dusons are A/B, btw
theoretically operating at A with 112dB speakers behind them.Again, I do not feel any lack of quality.
There you are. Perfect then. :heart:
But I do now....after hearing the NuForces :broken:
If I may speak for Bert, also looking for something else, he is looking
for more power. Or better, more headroom. I have this headroom (4 x 140W
RMS into 8 Ohm), and it brings something that's lacking a 7W 300B.
Note that, having everything rather right around the amps, further
differences between my SS and Bert's LaydyDays are hard to determine at
comparing them side by side (which we did the other day).
More headroom here would also be funny, but not a "must have".
Why do I say the above ? well, because something has creeped into my mind
that the differences between amps are minor, once you have the other stuff
right. The stage doesn't differ, the (micro) information does not, the
character of the sound does hardly (the highs are slightly different, and
what's noticed further is, in our opninion, caused by more headroom in my
amps), differences in timbre and the like just are a hoax (and merely
caused by the source and the speakers), etc. etc.
Or ... my SS and Bert's tubes must sound coincidentally the same, in which
coincidence I don't believe.
Yeah..we had that discussion. If all the playback system is non-plus-ultra, the amp doesn't matter? This is, well I guess, not quite what you mean?
Similar to my reasons of power consumption, are Bert's reasons for tubes
getting end of life, that being the most sneaky phenomenon I personally
wouldn't be able to live with ("could it be caused by too old tubes ?").
When I played on the ORIS/MD3 combi, the tubes sound print somehow made the small setback in the MD's treble acceptable.
With the SWINGs nothing but the best would be acceptable.
Preliminary conclusion of the above is, that *if* "we" would be able to
find a class D amp outperforming (or equalling) what we have now, it would
suit you all. Just for the sole reason amps don't matter much as long as
the theory of operation is correct, *and* you don't overdrive them.
But sadly the point is so far : the class D amps differ so much in theory
of operation, that they DO differ from my amp the least ...
I'm searching. I keep on searching and hope to find an amp which a least have all the qualities the D-amp had and eventual less = more. Might it be a any-class amp. I don't care at all.
If only there would be a huge source of those things around here ...
It's even worse here. Very little to choose among. That is, everything has a distributor, but very litlle is displayed.
Peter
GC