Need more dynamic range without distortion (Orphean)

by kurt s @, Thursday, February 22, 2007, 19:22 (3982 days ago)

Hi Bert and all,

I have a pair of older Oris 150's with the PM4A driver from AER. It sounds great after some tweaking with the overall balance (a little treble softening) and that RLC notch filter added that Bert recommended. My only complaint is that it does not have as much dynamic range without distortion than I would like. It starts to shout at me with a shrill sound on loud violins and flutes and other high pitched instruments.

What can be done to fix this? Is the Orpheus the way to go? I love that 112 dB sensitivity rating. But is there a coloration due to compression loading in those speakers? I once had Avantgarde DUOs that had a "plastic" coloration compared to the Oris 150 that I did not like, and those were also compression drivers. So I worry a little about that.

Or, alternatively, will the new AER drivers for the Oris 150 increase the dynamic range without that shrill sound? I think the shrill sound is coming mostly from the whizzer cone because it's in that frequency range. So why would the new AER drivers be any different in that regard if it hasn't addressed the whizzer cone break-ups?

I need the full information on this before deciding which way I want to upgrade. I appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Kurt

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Need more dynamic range without distortion

by Bert @, Thursday, February 22, 2007, 22:03 (3982 days ago) @ kurt s

Hi Kurt,

Long time!

What can be done to fix this? Is the Orphean the way to go? I love that
112 dB sensitivity rating. But is there a coloration due to compression
loading in those speakers? I once had Avantgarde DUOs that had a
"plastic" coloration compared to the Oris 150 that I did not like, and
those were also compression drivers. So I worry a little about that.

Its called the Orphean... :wink:

Lets put it this way, the AER drivers are made to play at normal domestic levels and not too crank them up too much. It helps to add a filter to reduce the bass from them which will clear things up a bit. Compression drivers are made to be able to play loud without breaking up that easy at louder levels.

Its somewhat limited with the Orphean due to the low used crossover frequency so do not expect to play them at 120dB or more without distortion...

I need the full information on this before deciding which way I want to
upgrade. I appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks.

I do not hear plastic or "horny" sounds coming from the Orphean, it does give some when the horns are not painted properly or not assembled the way they should though (not accurately dampened as result but also due to the modification done to the drivers and partly due to the used filter principle.).

They sound much cleaner than the Oris 150 horns which you do know.

I know the character of the Avantgarde horns (not only those...) but that is mostly because they do not have the horns character and resonances under control.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Need more dynamic range without distortion

by kurt s @, Friday, February 23, 2007, 19:31 (3981 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Thanks for the reply. I am now very interested in replacing the Oris 150 with the Orphean. It seems like the perfect solution. I think for expense controls, I will just keep my old bassbins for now (the old Onken enclosures) and make them work to 225 Hz. They sound pretty good with low distortion when I braced them internally with cement board.

I am a bit confused about all the crossover options. I mean, I don't like the sound of silver in general - too bright and brittle most of the time, but I have no idea what that means in capacitors. And wow those are pricey. So are the copper ones pretty good and clear? I have no idea what is really optimum price/performance here. I want clear sound, but not at a very high price to get it.

I guess I'm thinking of a painted and assembled horn unit with built-in crossover and I will take care of the bass later. What's a typical cost for all this sent to California, USA?

I don't need 120 dB output, but I think I want 110 dB peak output though. I hope that it can do a pretty good job on that.

Thanks for the advice.

Kurt

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Thoughts on Caps

by Cappy @, Friday, February 23, 2007, 20:32 (3981 days ago) @ kurt s
edited by unknown, Saturday, March 24, 2007, 06:40

Kurt,

I just ordered a pair of Orpheans. I went for the Copper Duelunds.

I asked Bert the same question. His reply was that the Silvers are a bit cleaner sounding. I decided the Coppers were the best "bang for buck".

From my research, it seems that silver foil works well in caps for whatever reasons and is not necessarily brighter. So the silvers are likely better but that price difference is huge.

There are Duelund aluminum caps which are less expensive than the copper versions, so the coppers aren't even at the the bottom of the Duelund line.

Duelund foil/wax/paper caps certainly have a good reputation. I've used copper foil Jupiter caps which are beeswax and they are really excellent so I have high hopes for the Duelunds.

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Thoughts on Caps

by kurt s @, Friday, February 23, 2007, 21:49 (3981 days ago) @ Cappy

I never heard of Duelands before. I think that they are paper-in-oil, if I read the description right. I have heard Jensen paper-in-oils, and I use one in a 300B amp. I have heard their standard aluminum and their more expensive copper version. Definitely the copper version sounded much better, with a smooth top end, and that's the one I ended up using on that amp.

I guess there is an optimum type of capacitor for the type of driver, the same reason I have oil caps in my 300B SET and have teflon caps in my 45 SET. It might not be better to try a teflon cap in these speakers, for example, because perhaps it's a bit too hot on top with that kind. I am pretty sure Bert knows what sounds best for these drivers, and these are the kind of caps that do it, or else why would you go to such expense to have them? Bert doesn't throw away money like that for no reason.

The copper ones look like the best deal for the money to me, too.


Kurt

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Thoughts on Caps

by Cappy @, Friday, February 23, 2007, 22:02 (3981 days ago) @ kurt s
edited by unknown, Saturday, March 24, 2007, 06:41

No, they aren't paper in oil. They are paper and wax. And apparently some silk too. See:

http://www.duelundaudio.com/DIY/VSF/index.htm

From my (limited) experience the Jupiter wax and papers are, in general, higher resolution and neutral than paper in oil. I am assuming the Duelunds are the same way. That is why Bert recommends paper in oil on the tweeter for some solid state and other systems that have too much roughness and/or treble energy.

I've heard the Jupiters compared to teflon by Jim Dowdy: beautiful sounding, not quite as resolving but not as cool sounding either.

As you discuss, a lot of this is like cooking. What is better for cooking, salt or pepper? Neither, it depends on the other ingredients and personal taste.

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I don' understand why wax, but okay. nt

by kurt s @, Friday, February 23, 2007, 22:53 (3981 days ago) @ Cappy

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I don' understand why wax, but okay. nt

by GC, Sunday, February 25, 2007, 13:37 (3980 days ago) @ kurt s
edited by GC, Sunday, February 25, 2007, 22:08

Hi Kurt

I knew Steen Duelund for decades. He was a very good friend of mine.

Why wax?

Steen simply meant "bee" wax were the best dialectricum as to his meassures.
Seemed to him to come along "better" with the chaotic current of electrons passing through a conducter.

Silver vs cupper?

To my taste the cupper versions are more musical than the silver ones. I use cupper/oil in my Orpheans.
Too much silver in a system sounds to me too chalky. Or put in another way: As an air-pressure hose leaking.

GC

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I don' understand why wax, but okay. nt

by Cappy @, Sunday, February 25, 2007, 19:46 (3979 days ago) @ GC

Another reason for wax is that it provides superior damping. Caps can be surprisingly microphonic.

Some people are buying those Russian Teflon Caps and improving them by embedding them in wax.

I have had good luck damping my DIY speaker cables and ICs with beeswax.

One problem with wax is that it can melt, or be degraded quicker, in a hot audio chassis. That is obviously not a problem for speaker crossovers. Jupiter is supposedly coming out with a high-temp version of their product.

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Potting C's in Epoxy

by MikeH @, Monday, February 26, 2007, 05:25 (3979 days ago) @ Cappy

What about potting it inside a block of epoxy? It might overheat more easily but will not melt like wax.
I used to use some in an AM radio transmitter for navigation. Certainly not high fidelity but it stopped the microphonics.
Perhaps someone can do a listening test with three capacitors from the same batch. Plain, in wax and in epoxy.

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Potting C's in Epoxy

by Bert @, Monday, February 26, 2007, 16:20 (3979 days ago) @ MikeH

Hi Mike,

What about potting it inside a block of epoxy? It might overheat more
easily but will not melt like wax.

The filter of the Orphean is already "potted" inside epoxy. One reason is to protect the design, the other reason is to keep the parts in there "silent".

The Duelunds are not microphonic due to their design and that is one reason why they sound more clear and transparent...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Some additional answers...

by Bert @, Monday, February 26, 2007, 16:15 (3979 days ago) @ kurt s

Hi Kurt,

Most questions were already nicely answered by Cappy so I will only answer the remaining questions (sorry if I do forget some...).

I guess I'm thinking of a painted and assembled horn unit with built-in
crossover and I will take care of the bass later. What's a typical cost
for all this sent to California, USA?

Split in 2 packages (to be able to send it economically) will be around 175 Euro for shipping. The rest depends on the type of paint you want on them and the capacitors used. On the website you can select all available options, then checkout to have the shop calculate the total costs for that.

Here is a direct link to the page (Orphean DIY).

http://www.bd-design.nl/index.html?lang=en-uk&target=d90.html#p150

Best is to discuss these things by email though.

I don't need 120 dB output, but I think I want 110 dB peak output though.
I hope that it can do a pretty good job on that.

No problem... :smile:

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Awesome! You got an order! Thanks! nt

by kurt s @, Monday, February 26, 2007, 19:26 (3978 days ago) @ Bert

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