Amp's upon amp's (Off Topic)

by Flecko @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 00:07 (3970 days ago)

Hi all,
I am looking for a new amp and are a little confused. There are so many amp's where people tell there are good and have a good value for money that I don't know what to buy. At first I wanted to build the DIY version of the Firstwatt F3(ZenV9). Then I read about the UcD which should be available as an highend edition soon, that I prefer, if it sounds equal as good, to the ZV9 because I don't need tons of heatsinks. I also thought about building a tripath amp, but I think that there is more nice sounding coloration than a realy good sound(I saw some messurements). I don't want to make much experiments, the best were simply knowing what is the best solution (which isn't easy, I know). I want to invest about 500€ for a stereo pair, hence it might be a DIY solution. Has sombody a hint, or made some experiences with the amps I itemised? Or can sombody simply corect me if I have wrong view on those items.

@ Peter: What do you think the upgraded UcD will cost? Probably I should wait until you have made listening tests...

Greetings Adrian

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Amp's upon amp's

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Monday, March 05, 2007, 00:30 (3970 days ago) @ Flecko

Hi Adrian,

If everything is allright one pair will cost me 1900 euro. However, possibly I'm the last to pay that price, because that was before the high grade upgrade promises. Never heard another price though, but for that matter note I was talking about "a group" of people wanting them *if* it really would be the best.

Note that you get them paid by the electricity bill being less ... :grin:

Btw, you can trust that we will test them heavily; also if I decide to keep them, they must just be good. I say it again, I am the most happy with what I have currently, so it must really be good/better.

Peter

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Amp's upon amp's

by Flecko @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 12:11 (3970 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

Note that you get them paid by the electricity bill being less ... :grin:

This is a good point, beside the electricity bill it is somehow mot very modern to waste 175 W in heat and just 15W in amplification. I would need 0.2 K/W heatsinks per channel, that is crazy.
On the other Hand 1900€ is far more than I planed to invest, although for a ready made amp which can keep the promises it is not to much. Perhaps the man from hypex will sell it as DIY version too...?

Btw, you can trust that we will test them heavily; also if I decide to
keep them, they must just be good. I say it again, I am the most happy
with what I have currently, so it must really be good/better.

I am waiting patiently for your results :wink:

Greetings Adrian

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Amp's upon amp's

by angeloitacare, Monday, March 05, 2007, 12:45 (3970 days ago) @ Flecko

i would go definitively for a redwine audio signature30. ClassT is in my opinion way ahead of any other amplification method, and this amp seems to be upon the best.

rds Angelo

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Amp's upon amp's

by Bert @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 12:56 (3970 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Angelo,

i would go definitively for a redwine audio signature30. ClassT is in my
opinion way ahead of any other amplification method, and this amp seems to
be upon the best.

Have you heard any of those D amps? Have you heard any real good tube amp? Did you already listen to the Redwine or is it because everybody else (like you are doing) is repeating what other people say? How many of those people actually did listen to that amplifier?

Or is the one time play with a certain tube amp making all tube amps sound like ****?

I would only tell people if certain things are the best after hearing and tested it properly first.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Amp's upon amp's

by angeloitacare, Monday, March 05, 2007, 18:25 (3970 days ago) @ Bert

hi Bert

i base my conviction not simply of other's talking. As u know, i have the Viva SET at home, wich certainly is a excellent tube amp, and the Trend's ClassT amp. I've already posted my impressions comparing bouth amp's, and actually i listen the Orpheans only with the TA10.1. I wrote Vinnie Rossi from RWA and asked him the comparisons between the Trend's and his amp's. Here his answer :

>Hi Angelo, Yes, I have heard the TA10 (as well as Super T-amp, regular
T-Amp, etc). The Signature 30 is a BIG upgrade in every regard... much more
full sounding, more transparent, smoother top-end, faster, more articulate
bass, can drive more types of speakers because it is 30wpc RMS vs. 6wpc RMS
of the TA10. The Signature 30 sounds more like a top-notch SET amp in the
midrange, but with much better bass (tighter, faster, more powerful) and
better top-end detail. It also has a very black background (no hum, no
Noise) because of the high current SLA battery power.

rds Angelo

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Amp's upon amp's

by Bert @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 18:39 (3970 days ago) @ angeloitacare

Hi Angelo,

i base my conviction not simply of other's talking.

Thanks for the extended explanation, sorry for reflecting my antipathy against posts like yours, common on the world wide web.

Still, you did not hear the Signatures and probably other similar or differently build amplifiers to state that it is the best.

Same thing with the Nuforce amplifiers where everybody is raving about and those didn't do it for me at all (will test the 9SE's in a few weeks again though, then I will have these for several days). I will also check out the Signatures... :wink:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Amp's upon amp's

by angeloitacare, Monday, March 05, 2007, 18:49 (3970 days ago) @ Bert

Bert

i want to buy the SIG30, but as i am not a amp collector, i first must sell something. And to sell the Viva isn't such a easy task. And the TA10.1 makes me very happy, too, at the moment.
I dont know the Nuforce amp's, and how they compare to ClassT amp's, at what point there are similarities.

Angelo

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Amp's upon amp's

by Flecko @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 22:22 (3969 days ago) @ Bert
edited by unknown, Monday, March 05, 2007, 22:26

Hi Bert,

I will also check out
the Signatures... :wink:

Are you planing to make a listenigtest with Peters UcD and the signature, and perhaps some other amps you have? You guys live close to each other arn't you? Would be interesting.

Greetings Adrian

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Amp's upon amp's

by Bert @, Monday, March 05, 2007, 22:54 (3969 days ago) @ Flecko

Hi Adrain,

Are you planing to make a listenigtest with Peters UcD and the signature,
and perhaps some other amps you have? You guys live close to each other
arn't you? Would be interesting.

If we can get things together at the same time then this would be a very nice and interesting oppertunity...and yes, we do not live too far apart. :cool:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Amp's upon amp's

by soundcheck @, Germany, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 18:05 (3968 days ago) @ Bert

Hi folks.

Theoretically a D-Amp or T.Amp shouldn't sound better than a class A amplifier.
On one hand you've got the poor filter in the output and on the other hand you've got some kind of poor feedback involved.
Theoretically from technology perspective a Ucd should sound better than T-Amp. If you look at T-Amps over UcD, a T-Amp does not even have a differential input.

However:

I think the only advantage of a T-Amp over its competitors it is its fully integrated one-chip design. This for sure solves a lot of issues.
The possibility to run it from battery and of course that you run this
amp in a reasonable range on a high efficiancy system are some more pros.
A Ucd or Icepower will almost run idle at very low output voltages with our speakers. I wonder if that is a real benefit here, I doubt it.

And we are back again to my beloved thesis "everything" ends up in a compromise at a certain stage. You win at one end and you'll loose at another
end. In the end it is the whole "system" resp. chain which sounds best or not.

You can discuss this forever, without coming to a conclusion.

Perhaps you'll have a look at

www.newclassd.com.

I think this is the most sophisticated Class-D design available today.
(Lars Claussen is the former developer of LC-Audio)
It doesn't need very much of DIY skills to assemble the whole amp.
and it doesn't cost you 1900€.

Cheers
Klaus

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Amp's upon amp's

by GC, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 19:02 (3968 days ago) @ soundcheck
edited by GC, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 20:34

Hi Klaus

Perhaps you'll have a look at

www.newclassd.com.

Done that time ago and I know quite some of the products which came out of the same Mr. Clausens hands. I even had some of his products running in my system years ago. (I shall leave the "why it's not still there" out here).

People in DK who heard his modules doesn't report back any revolutions here compared to other brands.

But now Klaus and other good Folks around here maybe can explain me why D-amp and T-amp manufactores (though not UcD) tell me, that I caNot use those amps with a line filtered plate amp as the SWINGs has and all the most ORIS/BD 15/BD30 combos has, if I take the signal from the speaker terminals of the D, T etc. amps?[/i]

The NuForces obviously underlined that.


Cheers to you as well

GC

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Amp's upon amp's

by soundcheck @, Germany, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 20:34 (3968 days ago) @ GC


But now Klaus and other good Folks around here maybe can explain me why
D-amp and T-amp manufactores (though not UcD) tell me, that I caNot use
those amps with a line filtered plate amp as the SWINGs and all the most
ORIS/BD 15/BD30 combos, if I take the signal from the speaker terminals of
the D, T etc. amps?


Full-bridge D-Amps got differential output stages - 180degree out of phase.
You can't connect them to ground. D-Amps usually like resistive loads most.
It is not even recommended to drive passive crossovers with D-Amps for best
results.


I guess that's what you mean!??
Cheers

Klaus

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Bridged D's and...who's the rest?

by GC, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 20:58 (3968 days ago) @ soundcheck


But now Klaus and other good Folks around here maybe can explain me

why

D-amp and T-amp manufactores (though not UcD) tell me, that I caNot

use

those amps with a line filtered plate amp as the SWINGs and all the

most

ORIS/BD 15/BD30 combos, if I take the signal from the speaker terminals

of

the D, T etc. amps?[/b]

Full-bridge D-Amps got differential output stages - 180degree out of
phase.
You can't connect them to ground. D-Amps usually like resistive loads
most.
It is not even recommended to drive passive crossovers with D-Amps for
best
results.


I guess that's what you mean!??
Cheers

Klaus

Hi Klaus

Yes that's what I mean.

And which of the T's and the D's are bridged. (Sorry if I'm asking too much :blush: )

GC

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Bridged D's and...who's the rest?

by soundcheck @, Germany, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 21:42 (3968 days ago) @ GC


And which of the T's and the D's are bridged. (Sorry if I'm asking too
much :blush: )


All I know! T-Amp, Icepower, Newclassd and I guess also UcD :wink:

Only the differential output delivers best sound quality.

\Klaus

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End of story?

by GC, Wednesday, March 07, 2007, 21:57 (3968 days ago) @ soundcheck


And which of the T's and the D's are bridged. (Sorry if I'm asking too
much :blush: )

All I know! T-Amp, Icepower, Newclassd and I guess also UcD :wink:

Only the differential output delivers best sound quality.

Klaus

Oh boy.

So I may conclude I can forget either T/D amps or my SWINGs?


:cry:: :cry:: :cry::


GC

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End of story?

by Flecko @, Friday, March 09, 2007, 00:03 (3966 days ago) @ GC

Hi,

@ GC

Oh boy.

So I may conclude I can forget either T/D amps or my SWINGs?

Rather the T/D amp's I guess :wink:

@ Klaus (or sombody who knows)

If you still read this (???) can you tell me where do you read this about resitive loads on class D amps? I searched the web and did not found anything related to.

@ All

Thanks all for the answeres and inspirations. The amp question is still not easy, but for now I will try to make a very good build of the ZV9. The reference to me is a slightly modified lua 4040c, which I try to beat :grin: and my thel IQ-amps doesn't do this :unhappy:
I don't know how good the lua is compared to 300b or some very highend tubeamps. Perhaps somebody has experience with this amp? I like to know where I stand with my amp's (Thel IQ-Amp).

Greetings Adrian

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End of story?

by GC, Friday, March 09, 2007, 07:51 (3966 days ago) @ Flecko

Hi Adrian

Rather the T/D amp's I guess :wink:

nnah...got the problem solved. It was a mental one I had...:eek:

If you still read this (???) can you tell me where do you read this about
resitive loads on class D amps? I searched the web and did not found
anything related to.

I Googled this thread if interested: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-58476.html

At least the word resitive load appears here.


GC

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