amplification + integration with bass (Orphean)

by Rudolf150 @, Friday, March 09, 2007, 22:51 (3972 days ago)

Hello,

I am not sure if I should be bothering you with this question/dilemma, but I would like to have some input from you to help me deciding.

For my Orphean setup, without any bass yet :shame: , I am currently using a EL34 2 x 12 Watt SE amp.
Now I have the possiblity to step up to either a full range 2 x 30 Watt amp or to a 2 x 8 Watt Bandpass (even better sounding) amp (from 150 Hz and up).

Sure the choice depends on the configuration I will use with the future bass setup.
As I do not need the lowest or loudest bass, running the bass from the same main amp should be option :confused: , right?
From my feeling, coherence between bass and the Orphean should be optimal in this situation.
For the bass I would like to use a 25 cm Craaft PA Woofer (sensitivity of 97/98 dB/W/m) in bass reflex cabinet.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and opinions.
Thanks,
Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Bert @, Friday, March 09, 2007, 23:09 (3972 days ago) @ Rudolf150

Hi Rudolf,

Now I have the possiblity to step up to either a full range 2 x 30 Watt
amp or to a 2 x 8 Watt Bandpass (even better sounding) amp (from 150 Hz
and up).

With the 30W you can use a passive line filter for best integration, with the bandwidth limited 8W this is not possible. Then you will need an active crossover or at least a pre-amplifier (active probably) that is able to drive two amps at the same time.

From my feeling, coherence between bass and the Orphean should be optimal
in this situation.

So, then the passive line filter is the best option (to my personal opinion)...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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amplification + integration with bass

by Cappy @, Friday, March 09, 2007, 23:45 (3972 days ago) @ Bert
edited by unknown, Friday, March 09, 2007, 23:51

I may have read Rudolf's message wrong, but it seemed to me he wants to use the same amp for horn and bass duties, without a separate bass amp.

Did I misunderstand your question, Rudolf?

If I did not misunderstand, this is different than what Bert is talking about with the line level filter. The Orphean is set up to use separate amplification for the bass.

If I did misunderstand, than please ignore this message :grin:

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Friday, March 09, 2007, 23:55 (3972 days ago) @ Cappy

Hi Cappy,

Well spotted !

I may have read Rudolf's message wrong, but it seemed to me he wants to use
the same amp for horn and bass duties, without a separate
bass amp.

This is exactly what I mean. Sorry for my unclear message :blush:

If I did not misunderstand, this is different than what Bert is talking
about with the line level filter. The Orphean is set up to use separate
amplification for the bass.

If I did misunderstand, than please ignore this message :grin:

No ignoring required; good reading, Cappy.

So, Cappy, you mean the Orphean is optimised for using a separate bass amplification?
Havey you tried the way with only 1 amp for bass and Orpheans?

Thanks,
Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Cappy @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 00:01 (3972 days ago) @ Rudolf150

You really can't use one amp for both horn and bass. It would require a different (and much more complicated and poor sounding) crossover.

I would personally never go back to speakers that did not have separate bass amplification, having used the Oris Horns for a few years now. There is just so much more flexibility to change the bass to taste, and to one's room with separate amplification.

And just as importantly, the design allows one to use a lower power amp on the horns.

Regarding your bass system, I would highly recommend using the BD-15s, if funds allow, because even if you don't get them now you are going to upgrade to them eventually. :grin:

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 00:13 (3972 days ago) @ Cappy

Hi Cappy,

Thanks for your input; much appreciated.
I guess your suggestion is in line with most Orphean users.

Yep, I might be better off to go for the BD15 straightaway ... but I might run into some problems with the (female) financial director here :grin:

Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Cappy @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 00:27 (3972 days ago) @ Rudolf150

I understand staying on the good side of the "Chief Financial Officer".

So you will need separate bass amplification, but I don't think you need to spend much money to start to get good results. I originally used an old Denon solid state amp I had lying around and it worked fine.

When I upgraded to better amplification the system sounded better, but that is part of the fun of the hobby, making incremental and methodical improvements, and improving one's powers of audio discernment at the same time.

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amplification + integration with bass

by GC, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 00:21 (3972 days ago) @ Cappy

You really can't use one amp for both horn and bass. It would require a
different (and much more complicated and poor sounding) crossover.

Or an insane effective bass system, Cappy. :wink: Though for sure not excisting as either it would 10 m's long or not being able to reach the Orpheans soundwise neither timewise. :whistle:

GC

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amplification + integration with bass

by Bert @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 09:05 (3972 days ago) @ Rudolf150

Hi Rudolf,

So, Cappy, you mean the Orphean is optimised for using a separate bass
amplification?

As Cappy mentioned it is almost impossible to combine the Orphean with a bass system with just one amplifier. To remain the same sound signature of the Orphean you can't simply use an attenuator to reduce its gain to match the sensitivity of the bass. Another disadvantage of a passive crossover used for the bass is that it needs high value coils and high value capacitors plus some impedance correction networks to make that filter work.

The damping factor of the bas will be worse due to the coil used and the impuls behaviour gets worse by that type of filters too.

To be able to balance the whole system for one amplifier takes a lot of work and the costs for quality parts to do this will probably cost the same as using a good plate amp which will sound better and gives you much more flexibility in the end.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 11:42 (3972 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Thanks for the clear answer. So sound wise and financial wise a separate bass amplifier is the best. :wink:

So the 2 x 8 Watt Bandpass (from 150 Hz and up) amplifier for the Orpheans (+ separate bass amp) would be the best choice, right?

Is there anybody at all, that is using one amplifier for bass and Orphean/ORIS?

Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Bert @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 12:01 (3972 days ago) @ Rudolf150

Hi Rudolf,

So the 2 x 8 Watt Bandpass (from 150 Hz and up) amplifier for the Orpheans
(+ separate bass amp) would be the best choice, right?

Best if the amp is not bandwidth limited to play only from 150Hz and up. Then you will need a pre-amplifier able to drive two main amplifiers per channel.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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amplification + integration with bass

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 12:46 (3972 days ago) @ Bert
edited by unknown, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 12:49

Hi Bert,

Please correct me if I'm wrong :

Best if the amp is not bandwidth limited to play only from 150Hz and up.
Then you will need a pre-amplifier able to drive two main amplifiers per
channel.

Meaning : If you would use the normal filter setup with the bandpass amp, you'd still lacking the lower frequencies.

Also :
When you go like suggested, the "quality" (fwiw) of the "main" amp willl not contribute to the resulting output from the bass amp. Hence, the main amp is no input (pre-amplifying) for the bass amp then.

And :
Theoretically you'd need more power in the bass amp.

How many mistakes so far ? I hope not more than three !:grin:

Also I would think it needs another filter setup then. But that would be minor adjustments (?).

Lastly just a question Bert;
My setup just allows for a setup as suggested. I mean, I do have/use such a pre-amp. However, we went as "usual", leaving half of the outputs (of the pre-amp) unused. Now, could there be benefit from changing explicitly as per your suggestion ?

This is related to my above "statements" of course, one of them being about the "quality" of the main amp feeding the bass amp. I can imagine that it just might be better to use the quality of the explicit pre-amp.
Or ?

I am very sorry that/if I still don't get this picture in full ... :sorry:

Thanks,
Peter

PS: Sideinfo for others : my main amp is the same as the bass amp for quality (it's 2 stereo blocks).

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 13:29 (3972 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Bert and Peter,

Thanks for the response.
Bert, good point about the bandwidth; I almost forgot.

In the case I still would go for using the double output of a preamp to bass and main amplifier, should it be a concern that I will be using a fully passive AC Silver Rock TVC (because of loading the transformer with 2 power amps) ?

Thanks,
Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Bert @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 15:12 (3971 days ago) @ Rudolf150

Hi Rudolf,

In the case I still would go for using the double output of a preamp to
bass and main amplifier, should it be a concern that I will be using a
fully passive AC Silver Rock TVC (because of loading the transformer with
2 power amps) ?

Yes, because the new total impedance as seen by the TVC is highly reduced, both main amps are connected in parallel then and TVC's need to see a high impedance (preferable >50k) on their outputs.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 22:30 (3971 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Thanks.
It seems that everything is pointing (even more so with my TVC) to use the amplifiers as you suggested from the start.

Sorry, I am just being stubborn or naive :shame:

I guess it will be the 2 x 30W full bandwidth amp or something with a D or T ... :dntknw:

Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Bert @, Saturday, March 10, 2007, 15:29 (3971 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

Meaning : If you would use the normal filter setup with the bandpass amp,
you'd still lacking the lower frequencies.

Yes, the limited amp has a smaller output transformer lacking deeper bass but in return more extended in the high frequencies than a normal output transformer (for good bass) can reach. No need to reply on this part, that is for a new topic if there is further interest in this.

When you go like suggested, the "quality" (fwiw) of the "main" amp willl
not contribute to the resulting output from the bass amp. Hence, the main
amp is no input (pre-amplifying) for the bass amp then.

Where in this topic did I suggested about quality? But your assumption is correct though, if the bass of the main amp is not okay then this is what you will hear back when using the line-level filter principle as standard used with all Oris systems.

Theoretically you'd need more power in the bass amp.

Not just more power but mainly quality power to control the bass driver without adding things to the sound.

Also I would think it needs another filter setup then. But that would be
minor adjustments (?).

It is something very different....We should start a new topic for that to explain the differences between active filtering and passive line filtering plus the (dis)advantages of using the signal coming from the main amplifier and use that for the bass...

My setup just allows for a setup as suggested. I mean, I do have/use such
a pre-amp. However, we went as "usual", leaving half of the outputs (of
the pre-amp) unused. Now, could there be benefit from changing
explicitly as per your suggestion ?

Only disadvantages in your situation. Especially if you are going to change things in the future (different amps, different pre-amp and perhaps even none with remote controlled GC).

This is related to my above "statements" of course, one of them being
about the "quality" of the main amp feeding the bass amp. I can
imagine that it just might be better to use the quality of the
explicit pre-amp. Or ?

Not always, YOUR main amp is a much better pre-amp... :grin:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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amplification + integration with bass

by Frode, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 11:28 (3971 days ago) @ Rudolf150

This one: http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-uk/d47.html

Frode

Is there anybody at all, that is using one amplifier for bass and
Orphean/ORIS?

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amplification + integration with bass

by Rudolf150 @, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 23:37 (3970 days ago) @ Frode

Thanks for the link, Frode.
I think it is best to follow the setup as suggested by using a separate bass amp.

Rudolf

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amplification + integration with bass

by Frode, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 23:59 (3970 days ago) @ Rudolf150

Thanks for the link, Frode.
I think it is best to follow the setup as suggested by using a separate
bass amp.

Rudolf

Yes, that is a lot better.

Frode

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