T and D conclusions (Off Topic)

by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 06:19 (3932 days ago)
edited by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 07:35

I could not find a post in the Orphean tweak subject where I could fit in with my observations, hence this little private off topic letter:

I have not much to add to what is already to be found in that subject, but however it is I have the RWA Sigs grilling in here as well.

My Orphs in the Swings has not yet been applied to the tweaks suggested by Bert, so my observations are merily based on listening to a "normal" speaker not been tweaked for any particular amp, which it neither shouldn't. Not the Swings as least as this comes as a universal speaker and not as a DIY thing.
I do not have the slightest problems connecting any tube or transistored amp to the Swings and doing so does not change the sound of the Swings, but merily just show you the differences between different amps. So easy as it is.

Now back to the RWA Sigs: Huhahuha.....what a treble f*a*r*t it is :wacko:
As per the Orphs relatively low impendance at higher freq., the RWA just quote a 10 db rise between 10 kHz and 20 kHz. ZzziiiiiGCGCGCGCg it says.
And how nice is that you think?
I can simply not evaluate the rest of its qualities as per this twingeling thing.
Bert could as he tweaked his speaker to meet the problem, so better rely on his response to the RWA's.

Peter pointed out that T-amps could be sensitive to what's connected before and after them. You are certainly very right Peter about that.

I have two DAC's going here. One is my Vintage oh so nice sounding DAC, that plays troubleless with what ever it has been connected to over the many years.
But the RWA will not accept it: Weeeeeiiiiiiouwwwwwiiiingzzzzzzzzz wooble tones yells out of my speaker at 100 db... at least. Like a gliding tone burst for meassuring loudspeakers amplitude. Did I get a free option for using this as a Clio meassuring system? :grin:

Connecting my TwinDac+ to the RWA everything turns normal again. Aha....so what can I learn from that?

NoTHING!

These RWA has failed from the very beginning here as they simply is too weird about what's connected to them in/out.
It is completely unaccepteble to me that one need to add components in series with my loudspeakers to help out that amps problems. No way I can accept that.

So among all those amps we tried out (UCD's however never reached our door step), I should say that the only amp which had appeal were the NuForces. Not in Holland they had, but here in Belgrade. I had no RFI flying around in the air here, but had, what we didn't find in Holland, a lot of triggy start problems and odd grounding requirements. Even the NuForce team in the states stopped quite suddently to respond to my questions why the amps were so weird. Understandable, as they know already they can't help it out. So no dialog here at all.

It is a mystery to me why all those "amp's of the year" are getting Golden Palms, Oscars en mas, and tests of bliss and "finally" the amp we were all waiting for?
They are all of them weird in their own particular way.

If anyone on this planet could explain that to me, using other terms than the commercial relationship between test magazines and manufactorers, I am very open to hear your opinion.

So I play my last card on Bert own chipamps to show a normal behaviour and simultaniously show if it can handle the music the way tubes does it, but with out their set backs.

Finally to make all comments from my side come into a perspective, you have to remember I was triggered by the NuForces qualities of which I found many being far better than tubes and SS amps, despite their odd behaviours.
That started the hunt for the amp of all times, to replace my tubed system.
And all finally lead to a big disapointment as I found nothing to be true of what all the rest well reputed new-class amps could do.

GC:grin:

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T and D conclusions

by fu_man @, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 10:32 (3932 days ago) @ GC

Thanks GC for your review- very useful although (for me) very unfortunate.

This comes as a major disappointment for me as I need two hands to count the number of years I have been dreaming of owning an Oris..(then Orphaen) speaker system.
Getting rid of my Class A 120W power amps (driving electrostatics) and buying the RWA Sig 30 was what I considered a move toward gearing toward horn speaker system. On the speakers I have used the Sig on so far ( some temporary cheap Visaton open baffles and a friends Rogers)I have been very impressed. But with the Orphaen it is seems like this is a match made in hell.... and If I change again.. I might end up divorced! So close and yet so far... it seems as it will never be...

:-(

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T and D conclusions

by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 10:39 (3932 days ago) @ fu_man
edited by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 10:53

Thanks GC for your review- very useful although (for me) very
unfortunate.

This comes as a major disappointment for me as I need two hands to count
the number of years I have been dreaming of owning an Oris..(then Orphaen)
speaker system.
Getting rid of my Class A 120W power amps (driving electrostatics) and
buying the RWA Sig 30 was what I considered a move toward gearing toward
horn speaker system. On the speakers I have used the Sig on so far ( some
temporary cheap Visaton open baffles and a friends Rogers)I have been
very impressed. But with the Orphaen it is seems like this is a match
made in hell.... and If I change again.. I might end up divorced! So
close and yet so far... it seems as it will never be...

:-(

Fu-man

But your are not that bad off here as I see it.
Bert has the tweak for the Orpheans so that your Sig will prevail. No worries.

I don't have that tweak on my Swings and it is much more difficult to built it in the Orphs talking Swings. Your Orphs should just be orderd with the tweak built in.

Bingo....

Like your Sig's. They are good amps.

I have Berts word for they go together with the tweaks applied.

Don't spill them or the Orphs just because I have some problems here, which you will not have. :grin:

GC

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T and D conclusions

by angeloitacare, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 13:47 (3932 days ago) @ GC

hi GC

it's funny that no reviews i've read abought these T'amps points this high-frequency rise out. It seems they all really have no clue at all....

Angelo

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T and D conclusions

by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 16:20 (3931 days ago) @ angeloitacare

hi GC

it's funny that no reviews i've read abought these T'amps points this
high-frequency rise out. It seems they all really have no clue at all....

Angelo

Hi Angelo

It is only when the impedance drops that these amps shows an amplitude rise.

GC:grin:

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T and D conclusions

by Giovanni, Ravenna, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 03:35 (3930 days ago) @ GC
edited by unknown, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 03:41

Hi

if useful I'd like to show these graph measured on 41Hz AMP1, based on Tripath TA2022 and published on an italian magazine:

1. Frequency responce

[image]

2. Impedance of speaker load used for measurenments

[image]

How explain it?

I know that Signature 30 use exactly the Tripath reference board, like AMP1. But on Signature 30 there are some tweaks: two big PIO input caps and battery power with small bulk caps (with respect to ordinary PS). I don't know the Sig 30 output filter circuit, that is what most affects sound.

Of course this is not a defence of class-T. Just curious because I didn't notice myself the 10Khz-20Khz raising freq, and I know other measurements with same results.

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T and D conclusions

by GC, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 09:39 (3930 days ago) @ Giovanni

I know that Signature 30 use exactly the Tripath reference board, like
AMP1. But on Signature 30 there are some tweaks: two big PIO input caps
and battery power with small bulk caps (with respect to ordinary PS). I
don't know the Sig 30 output filter circuit, that is what most affects
sound.

Of course this is not a defence of class-T. Just curious because I didn't
notice myself the 10Khz-20Khz raising freq, and I know other measurements
with same results.


My only guess is that that the T used here and the Sig's....acts fine when imp is higher than x Ohms. The shown imp. plot does not present a particular "low" imp. load. Just typical variations.

When the imp goes real low, i.e. 3 Ohm or 2 Ohm they start to see a short cut...and then....

? :dntknw:

GC

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T and D conclusions

by Bert @, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 10:44 (3930 days ago) @ Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

Of course this is not a defence of class-T. Just curious because I didn't
notice myself the 10Khz-20Khz raising freq, and I know other measurements
with same results.

As GC noticed, these amps act strange pretty fast on loads below 4 ohms but this is not the point, the most critical one is their produced sound.

Perhaps it needs a very transparent loudspeaker or critical listeners to be able to point to their produced unnatural sound which normal linear amplifiers do not produce.

But hey, if you like the T-amps then use them! As long as you do not try to convince people that the principle used is the best of the best...

No T or D amps will be used within my system nor will I advice people to get them. There are more reliable, more honest and much better sounding amps around in this world...

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 11:53 (3930 days ago) @ Bert

As GC noticed, these amps act strange pretty fast on loads below 4
ohms but this is not the point,

... because you tweaked that out.

the most important one is their produced sound.

Which in the end (now we properly judged them) comes down to what I "promised" before we started this : they act as a DAC (and some really *are* like a TacT / Lyngdorf which are truly digital amps).

Thus, what it -for me- comes to, is that this "D/A" operation in there, will be one of the hundreds (if not more) of D/A converters existing, and sure the one is better than the other. More importantly, I think that the principles of the (semi) digital amps lead to huge oversampling of the data, which is the very first thing I don't like. For that matter it can well be that treating the outcoming data of them with a nos-DAC (like we do) is the worst thing to do. An oversampling DAC might be rounding the digital errors of the digital amp better ...

But hey, what are we doing then ?
How many times did we molest the data then ?

Peter

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by GC, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 20:18 (3929 days ago) @ PeterSt.

As GC noticed, these amps act strange pretty fast on loads below 4
ohms but this is not the point,


... because you tweaked that out.

the most important one is their produced sound.


Which in the end (now we properly judged them) comes down to what I
"promised" before we started this : they act as a DAC (and some really
*are* like a TacT / Lyngdorf which are truly digital amps).

Thus, what it -for me- comes to, is that this "D/A" operation in there,
will be one of the hundreds (if not more) of D/A converters existing, and
sure the one is better than the other. More importantly, I think that the
principles of the (semi) digital amps lead to huge oversampling of the
data, which is the very first thing I don't like. For that matter it can
well be that treating the outcoming data of them with a nos-DAC (like we
do) is the worst thing to do. An oversampling DAC might be rounding the
digital errors of the digital amp better ...

But hey, what are we doing then ?
How many times did we molest the data then ?

Peter

Hello Peter...

nna..The TacT is a powerful DAC ..yeah?

Now take that and change it into a nos-DAC and apply your bit-perfect GC Vista ...

What will we then experience? :heart:

GC

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T and D conclusions

by Giovanni, Ravenna, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 14:50 (3930 days ago) @ Bert


But hey, if you like the T-amps then use them! As long as you do not try
to convince people that the principle used is the best of the best...

Hi Bert,

from the "what is the best" point of view, I know perfectly that my ZEN variation 9 is one step beyond Tripath, UCD and chipamps.

From "what this amp let me enjoy that others don't" point of view, things change. UCD has nothing to add, unless you need 700W 4ohm with a sound close to an average valve amp.

Tripath amps worse fault is in acoustic instruments timber not so accurate. But are unbeatable with "rendering": sounds don't mix and each instruments looks like to have its own volume and position on the stage. This quality adds something even to ZENv9 amp.

From a DIY point of view, that's mine, the matter is: how can I correct Tripath faults, while keeping qualities I like? Sig 30 are diy amps like TA10 and others: based on Tripath reference designs targeted to consumer market. There is a lot to improve.

From this point of view I'm very interested to a more elaborated opinion about your listening sessions with T amps. High freq raising is something to deepen, what else?

May I ask to Peter and GC one opinion too? Or you already discussed this in a thread I lost?

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by Bert @, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 15:16 (3929 days ago) @ Giovanni

Giovanni,

Tripath amps worse fault is in acoustic instruments timber not so
accurate. But are unbeatable with "rendering": sounds don't mix and each
instruments looks like to have its own volume and position on the stage.

I did not hear this as an advantage compared to the LadyDay and not compared to the BD30's I am playing with constantly now. If you want accuracy then the D's and the Tripath' can't do that and even the LadyDays perform worse than those BD30's...

I hear far more separation and details never heard before, not through the D, the T or through the LadyDays.

The major faults of the D and T amps is their lack of real speed or better explained, real dynamical power. Even the LadyDay sounded more dynamic but without enough control.

From this point of view I'm very interested to a more elaborated opinion
about your listening sessions with T amps. High freq raising is something
to deepen, what else?

The impedance issue is not only in the high frequencies, it's over the whole frequency range as if they do not have any reserve or headroom down under...

What else? These things get to my nerves when listening for a longer time.

Non involving, somehow making the brain work very hard to filter out all not natural things in the sound and probably radiating some kind of energy in the air too...

My guess... wrong principle used for repoducing music on all aspects!

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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by GC, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 20:29 (3929 days ago) @ Giovanni

May I ask to Peter and GC one opinion too? Or you already discussed
this in a thread I lost?

Of course you may...:grin:

Well my opinion is just that I had a yell in the treble that I could hardly understand what else it was telling me.

Bert tweaked it out, as he would do just to hear a T-amp on his speakers, but no way for me, and as you see no way for him as well.

BTW: No, Bert didn't erase anything P and I were discussing. It is much more peacefull between us than you might think.

(Off Topic): I have enough joy here just to enjoy Peters GC. Later amps and what else to come, will come.

I have incomming promisses for Bert own BD30 amp. I have not heard it yet...but Holland reports some insane close to Nirvana experiences. :cool:


GC

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T and D conclusions

by takman @, Tuesday, April 24, 2007, 05:42 (3927 days ago) @ Bert

Awfully harsh comments. While I respect all of your opinions, I think we need to add a little objectivity to the discussion. First, the listening was done using the Orpheans, which are in many ways even more "extreme" than the Oris Reference. I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that the Red Wine T amps may not necessarily be a good match with the Orpheans (because the emphasis of micro dynamics), so perhaps this is one of the problems you heard. So far as I can tell on my Oris, I do not hear the "metallic" sound (although I admit that there was something metallic prior to full break in), and it is very very non-fatiguing. I can listen all day with much pleasure, whereas I am sensitive to fatiguing sound (I could not listen for an extended period of time to the dCS digital gear that I used to own or to the foobar playback without using kernal streaming or Bert's other ways of getting direct data). Is it because the paper cone deemphasizes metallicness compared to the metal diaphram on a compression driver, I don't know, but I would think it is plausible. So I hope Bert's comment is directed only at the combination of the amps with the Orpheans. I would of course be interested in hearing people's experiences with these amps with the Oris. Second, I think it would help to put things into context by pointing out the relative strengths and weaknesses of each of the various T and D amps and tube amps. For me, I do believe my tube amps did some things better than the Red Wine (a certain glowing "romantic" aspect of the sound), but it wasn't enough to overcome its deficiencies (dynamic compression (both micro and macro) and a slight lack of "freshness" to the sound). So for some music, I could see myself preferring the tubes. Overall, though, I am much happier with the Red Wine. As for the other T and D amps, I have no idea, but from what I've read on the web, I kind of doubt whether any of them will be significantly better than the Red Wines. I got the impression that Bert and Peter were focussing on the "metallicness" of the sound and were not really mentioning the positive aspects in their posts. The combination of the two points above, at least to me, makes me feel like the critical comments are phrased in a way that is somewhat unfair to the makers of the Red Wine amps. Then again, I am also biased somewhat since I have smoe hard earned cash invested in the amps.

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by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, April 24, 2007, 11:31 (3927 days ago) @ takman

Hi takman, (waaay toooo loooong)

Please allow me to respond (too). :cool:

While I respect all of your opinions, I think we
need to add a little objectivity to the discussion.

Although you placed this in the context of Orphean/Oris, it is not hard to understand that we are as objective as we can be. That is, since the amps are for our own use ... :satisfied:

Awfully harsh comments.

Harsh seems subjective to a mood. But believe me, if someone is just buying such an amp (like you did, like GC did, like Bert did) there is no reason to have a bad mood about it (in advance). But it just didn't work out.

I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that the
Red Wine T amps may not necessarily be a good match with the Orpheans
(because the emphasis of micro dynamics), so perhaps this is one of the
problems you heard.

At least I know that, and you know it too because I responded to that, and you know what that response was ... (if not, check it out :evil:).
Also, if you followed the "Crazy Dynamics" subjects a bit, we now *know* it just can be true what you told from theory (like I did myself back then).
Conclusion : even to this aspect we know what to interpret. Well, we try hard anyway. :yes:

So far as I can tell on my Oris, I do not hear the "metallic" sound ...

First of all, this is not specific to the RedWine. Note though, that coincidentally the RedWine was -as the only one- directly compared with the "BDCrazyA". I can really really tell you that without this comparison this would not have been the judgement. You can see it easily, because nobody judges it like that ... so how come we did make that judgement at this one afternoon ?

The answer is as simple as useful : because the BDCrazyA (BD30) by pure coincidence is this very fast amplifier just the same, although the principle is completely different from a class T (or D). So, we were able to compare two highspeed amps, one class T and one "normal".

What one tends to like about these speedy amps, is the detail they reveil. True. But be careful here, because you *also* may tend to give priority to that : the more I hear the better it *will* be. Not true.

The latter comes down to what you wrote yourself about too much dynamics, which in the end is an effect of too much detail, or whatever it exactly is that gets the things out of balance. In the end this comes down to a comparison with the fuzzy phenomenon "involvement" or not. But it must be "something" that does or does not "create" that.

Back to the speedy amps ... the T-D amongst eachother all give a certain colouration to the sound. Might it be grainy, grey, cold, they are all similar, and you can just hear it is that what is "causing" the speed.
For me, it sounds digital, which most probably emerges from the coldness. This is personal.

When a D-T is compared to the relatively slow tube amp (I think slow is a wrong expression, and "rounding" might be better), or to a normal class A or A-B amp, comparing is very difficult. The nature of the sound is so much different that actually the only thing which comes to your mind by automation is the, say, crazy detail.
But crazy detail is totally unrelated to involvement, and a 30 year old cassette tape on a Nakamichi Tri Tracer might do better to that aspect.

Btw do note that this involvement becomes (must become) an explicit phenomenon to checkout, once things get so technical correct ...

Now, in an earlier post in this thread I explained how a "normal" sounding synth track turned into a metallic track. So I don't need to repeat that. But the messasge now is : the T-D's compared amongst them wouldn't have shown that (or got me thinking like that), and them compared to a slow amp is too much of apples and oranges. You just won't have that conclusion then.

The BDCrazyA appears to be a strange beast. Somehow it creates air air and air around all, including the details as we know it from the T-D. There is no greyness, no grain, no coldness. No digitial as it IS not digital. Mind what I say here, because the processing of the T-D just is ... (think of the signal riding at a sawtooth wave (like with the D) which looks very digital to me, and where the sawtooth has to be removed again ... all operating in 140MHz or whatever high frequency range.

So again, when listening to each of the T-D's, they do not sound metallic (but grey etc.). They do, however, when compared to the BDCrazyA (which actually was done with the RedWine only).
Really within one second. Believe me.

The last thing I can say about it with some sense :prankster: is that "we" listen at levels of "pure reality" by now. I mean, for each and every instrument we try to compare it with the real life instrument, and if something is wrong with it, we reject whatever it s what did it. Can you listen like that currently ? (it's allowed to say Yes, although I imply No of course :secret:).
To give you an indication : yesterday we (Bert) were -for several hours- working on the filter to reveil timbre (of a voice) the best we could. It can be not there (nice sweet sound, laid back, wrongish, not interesting) and it can be there too much (very interesting, out of balance other instruments, too much twingling of bells, fatigueing). Just a matter of knowing where to be at filter settings. This also, audible within seconds.
Try this with an improper playback means (like a certain version of GC) and you will never get there. Remember, those all digital (software) players which should all sound the same. Audible within a fraction of a second ...

It will be true that the Orphean reveils more than the Oris I think, but note that the above (timbre) plays in lower regions. Also note that it is just these regions where the T-D exaggerate and where -as I see it- dynamics come from. This is IMO just fast rise/fall times of the more powerfull somewhat lower frequencies (maybe 8K), like incurred from the smash on a snare drum. I don't expect that much difference in that area with what you hear.
What could matter though, is the greyness, which occurs in the higher (if not highest) regions. To my ears this causes the colours to go away from cymbals.

Second, I think it would help to put things into context ...

What I now say might be dangerous :
What you actually ask is the for me old-fashioned way of judging : what disturbes least.
I know, not so many months ago I couldn't go differently either, but today it is about "what is the most real". If *then* disturbances are present, this is a knockout. There's no tradeoff.
The T-D's we heard disturb, one way or the other.
My A-B amps do not disturb.
Bert's LadyDays do not disturb.

This is interesting and dangerous by itself. Why ?
The BDCrazyA does not disturb, and shows way more detail than my A-B amps;
Once I *know* about the details, I could get disturbed by my A-B amps not showing them. But I don't think it will come to that, unless you really start to learn about instruments and their details. For now, this is about spitting becoming audible, taking a breath before striking strings, twingles which just weren't there befor, and a mighty interesting staging, separation and cleanness. The opposities of these do not disturb I think.

For me, I do believe my tube amps ...

Here you say it yourself. The matter is though, where this impression of the opposite comes from. Thus, "not glowing ramance". As long as we don't think vintage (yeah, I'm quick), I say : cold. Or too cold anyway.
"Cold" too, is kind of nonsense, because that too comes from something. Too much processing could be a reason, similar to SS doing that in general (compared to tubes).
I'm not a tube guy, as long as SS can do it right. My A-B amps are the most neutral (= cold !) I could find in a years time 15 years ago. What comes from it ? warm sound !
Bert's LadyDay was unbeatable for Bert, so far. It's a "slow" tube amp. Uncontrolled bass and nicely distorted highs they say ...
Did I hear anything wrong from it ? NO!. Not with decently controlled playback. With Foobar ? h*ll yes. The most fuzzy tube amp playback, which you'd just take for granted ...

Today we just will not go for compromises.
The BDCrazyA shows even better controlled bass, reveils details like eternity, and adds super-air as a bonus.

... but from what I've read on the web ...

It doesn't matter all that much what we read in this respect. What to me *does* matter, is that all those reviews s*ck. The reviewers are payed for it, are able to play around with the reviewed stuff, and are biased somehow. I said it before : go through 6moons, and notice that each newly reviewed amp is the best again. Can't be much true, right ?

... makes me feel like the critical comments
are phrased in a way that is somewhat unfair to the makers of the Red Wine
amps.

It was and is not intentional to address any amp maker with a "you make a lousy product" (but for the NuForce of course :heat:). Besides that I don't think that in any of the posts (this thread or others) we stated an amp as "bad". But as said, a tiny disturbance is already enough for us not to proceed. Please trust me when I say that when we didn't kind of coincidentally run into the BD30's which were right under our nose, we would NOT have used one of these amps. We would have been clueless, with one option left : the UcD (which we still didn't hear).

Takman, of course it is not nice for you reading about our comparisons like this. But at least there is no way we are biased. I hope in the end you just can appreciate our efforts, which eventually are done for the benefit to all of us BD speaker owners. What if I'd tell you that we already spend more money on the transport to get one of the evaluated amps in time, than the price of a pair of normal BD30's ? that's our hard-earned cash. Spent to share.

:heart:

Peter

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by Bert @, Tuesday, April 24, 2007, 16:37 (3926 days ago) @ takman

Hi Taki,

read on the web, I kind of doubt whether any of them will be significantly
better than the Red Wines. I got the impression that Bert and Peter were
focussing on the "metallicness" of the sound and were not really
mentioning the positive aspects in their posts. The combination of the
two points above, at least to me, makes me feel like the critical comments
are phrased in a way that is somewhat unfair to the makers of the Red Wine
amps. Then again, I am also biased somewhat since I have smoe hard earned
cash invested in the amps.

I can't add much to Peter's explanations but we were objective but then to what we find most important and we did invested in total more money than the Redwine is costing just to find the better amp for our own personal use. I am sure that there are many situations where any amp migth be just the perfect match for the user in his system.

We found the better amp (to our own surprise!) in the CrazyA amplifier, a whole lot better doing the things we find important without the artifical "extra's" we simply do not appriciate.

Besides that, there are no positive aspects left for the tested amplifiers (including the Ladyday) compared to the GrazyA except for them showing less reality and therefore masking other faults within the system.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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by takman @, Wednesday, April 25, 2007, 16:36 (3925 days ago) @ Bert

Thanks for the responses. I really can't say anything more until I hear this Crazy BD30. Bert, do you intend to show existing BD30 owners how to convert one to the crazy version?

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by Bert @, Wednesday, April 25, 2007, 17:28 (3925 days ago) @ takman

Thanks for the responses. I really can't say anything more until I hear
this Crazy BD30. Bert, do you intend to show existing BD30 owners how to
convert one to the crazy version?

Still fooling around with more options to try out first but still, why would you want to convert the original BD30 as people using it for the bass already? You'll "need" the original version to that job optimally though... :wink:

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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T and D conclusions

by Cappy @, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 19:21 (3931 days ago) @ fu_man

But with the Orphean it is seems like this is a match
made in hell....

I see it a bit differently.

The people that buy BD-Design products and populate this forum gravitate here because of the way we hear. We are in the 5% minority of audiophile listeners that hear in "a certain way".

It isn't so much that the class-d/class-t amps are a bad match with the Orphean. It is that the class-d/class-t amps, in general, suck.

That rising top end is only the tip of the iceberg and in my opinion not at all the worst thing about them at all. They produce distortion products detectable throughout the frequency spectrum. They have a cold, soul-less sound with nasty metallic colorations.

The Orpheans are more revealing than many other speakers. So the true nature of the amps is going to come out easier. But I couldn't listen to them on any other speaker either, I believe. Not without wanting to punch a hole through a wall in about 30 minutes.

Now before I sound too elitist, I have to say that this is my personal taste. There is no right or wrong, there is only what we prefer. Our ears and brains can process sound differently.

I see this all the time in wine tasting. After 30+ years of oenology, I pretty much know what I like. My strong opinions can easily affect other people with less experience, but just because I think most Australian Syrahs are as a rule execrable doesn't mean that someone else can't get a lot of enjoyment out of them.

Also, tastes change. Years ago I used to enjoy Australian Syrahs.

Now I haven’t heard your amp, so who knows, maybe I’d even like it. As I said in another message, I reserve the right to change my mind if I ever hear a good one.

In any case, if you like your amp on your current speakers, I think there is a good chance you will like it on the Orpheans.

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T and D conclusions

by GC, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 20:39 (3931 days ago) @ Cappy

Hi Cappy

I see it a bit differently.


Me too...now having tried it...


The people that buy BD-Design products and populate this forum gravitate
here because of the way we hear. We are in the 5% minority of audiophile
listeners that hear in "a certain way".

My no value comment :unsure: : How many knows this forum? All who share the common "truth"?
Not many audioists knows the forum here...I beleive.

It isn't so much that the class-d/class-t amps are a bad match with the
Orphean. It is that the class-d/class-t amps, in general, suck.

I can only confirm, except one guy known to me, who are just about in the Nirvana stage with his newly aquired NF 9 REF and his 88 db/watt 3 way speakers.

That rising top end is only the tip of the iceberg and in my opinion not
at all the worst thing about them at all. They produce distortion
products detectable throughout the frequency spectrum. They have a cold,
soul-less sound with nasty metallic colorations.

Mjeah..in a way. Some have for sure this stamp. However it seems to tweak a lot of dull sounding speakers to the better subjectiv handshake with the brains listening to it?
My brain didn't handshake with any of them.

The Orpheans are more revealing than many other speakers. So the true
nature of the amps is going to come out easier. But I couldn't listen to
them on any other speaker either, I believe. Not without wanting to punch
a hole through a wall in about 30 minutes.

Warp speed here.

Now before I sound too elitist, I have to say that this is my personal
taste. There is no right or wrong, there is only what we prefer. Our
ears and brains can process sound differently.

This is a real truth. Why does this subject listening to audio cause so many discussions. There are no ultimate way of hearing things, eventhough Gurus around claim they own the "truth" and by that "knows"... Ha...:pleasantry:

I see this all the time in wine tasting. After 30+ years of oenology, I
pretty much know what I like. My strong opinions can easily affect other
people with less experience, but just because I think most Australian
Syrahs are as a rule execrable doesn't mean that someone else can't get a
lot of enjoyment out of them.

I'm one of those loving the Australian Syrah and hate the French versions. (Way off topic...and then..not ...not really)

Also, tastes change. Years ago I used to enjoy Australian Syrahs.

Remember them as good years then.


Cheers from Belgrade :drinks:

GC :cool:

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T and D conclusions

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 23:35 (3931 days ago) @ Cappy

Cappy,

1. Amen.

After 30+ years of oenology, I pretty much know what I like.

2. I come from from the village of Oene. Can I benefit ?
:derisive:

Today I heard how things should be. T and D conclusions ? cr*p. Fake, wrong. Won't work.

Cappy, you were silent for too long ...
Peter

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T and D conclusions

by Cappy @, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 21:59 (3931 days ago) @ fu_man
edited by unknown, Thursday, April 19, 2007, 22:07

Fu dude,

Another thought:

You could sell your Sig 30 and buy a basic Welborne Labs DRD 45 kit or a basic Diy HiFi Supply Ladyday 300b kit for not much more cash outlay.

Later you could upgrade either one's circuits, parts, and tubes to higher levels. You could do it incrementally too, over a period of years.

Either of these would be awesome with the Orpheans.

I've got the DRDs, Bert has the LadyDays.

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Another Amp

by Cappy @, Friday, April 20, 2007, 02:44 (3931 days ago) @ Cappy
edited by unknown, Friday, April 20, 2007, 03:28

Here is an amp that sounds good too. I've heard it in a headphone only system.

If you bought this after selling the Red Wine, you'd have plenty of money left over in your pocket.

Or keep the Red Wine as a bass amp. You're going to need one of those with the Orpheans anyway.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/S.E.X./***.htm

I don't know how well these DRDs or LadyDays or ***Amps would run on your current speakers, I am just saying that "all is not yet lost" if you someday want to change amps.

(The word checker is being a little aggressive here, substitute s-e-x for *** :wink: )

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Another Amp

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, April 20, 2007, 03:30 (3931 days ago) @ Cappy

[image]

:secret:

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Another Amp

by Cappy @, Friday, April 20, 2007, 03:51 (3931 days ago) @ PeterSt.
edited by unknown, Friday, April 20, 2007, 09:12

Peter,

Not surprised you come from a village called "wine". :wink:

I'm now listening to "Guero" by Beck on the Trends TA10.1, cranked up.

I gotta say Beck sounds excellent. He loves metallic tones and strong bass and wild dynamics, all things that complement the class-T to a T.

By the way, "cranked up" means my passive preamp volume control, a TVC, is at 8 o'clock. Too much gain is another weakness of these amps, at least for high efficient systems.

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Stupid-T

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, April 20, 2007, 11:47 (3931 days ago) @ Cappy

Hi Cappy,

He loves metallic tones and strong
bass and wild dynamics, all things that complement the class-T to a T.

Coincidentally yesterday we were comparing the "metallness" of the RedWine with the BDCrazyA :wink:
Of course, the RedWine had only 60 hours or so on it, but the CrazyA had only a handful.

With the RedWine we heard synthesizers, like any synth can be (there's no reference). Make the wave more square, and you'd have more metallic sound.
The only thing really noticeable as "something wrong" was the harshness. That is, once you have a reference that sound in general from the rest of your system can be without harshness.

Then came the CrazyA ...
The music turned from a rather stupid general synth track into the most beautifully composed liquid sine sound synth with real cymbals (or decently sampled anyway). A synth uninteresting 4bps stroke turned into a delicate plunking almost nylon guitar string.

These fake machines sound as their concept (riding on sawtooth waves etc.) : metal.
Away with them ! :prankster:

Peter

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Another Amp

by Giovanni, Ravenna, Saturday, April 21, 2007, 16:07 (3929 days ago) @ Cappy


If you bought this after selling the Red Wine, you'd have plenty of money
left over in your pocket.

Or keep the Red Wine as a bass amp. You're going to need one of those
with the Orpheans anyway.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/S.E.X./***.htm

Besides, they have real good arguments for redhead lovers :grin:

[image]

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/S.E.X./sexnuderedo.jpg

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