Orpheans, Oris, Quasars and Amps (BD-Design)

G'day there !

Allow me to answer a few of your questions from an objective perspective;

First of all, go for the Orphean. Strangely enough, it needs the BD15 Ultra for the good WAF. Only then you'd have the robust strong horn thing. Well, that's what my wife tells me.
( http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=14698 )
Note that it would be my advise to go for "my" design, which is different from the others you might see in the showroom, and of which you sadly can't see much on mentioned picture. But it's about the balance between good sound and looks (it's on a base plate and the port is down fireing). You can see just a tip of the base plate in the low left corner.

But of course it is about the sound.
As you might now I myself am into live instruments through loudspeakers, or, so to say, it is what's my objective is for my (current) life. You could say that what I do with XXHighEnd, Bert does with speakers, and the team that comes from it, just play those live instruments.

Live drums ? you bet. I think a thread is floating around on this forum somewhere, reporting on how we went to a Yamoto concert, bought a CD of them right after the concert, went home, and heard the same.

To feel the push of live normal drums a subwoofer helps, but is not really necessary with the BD15 Ultra (goes straight to 27 Hz). However with things like the odaiko in the background it's another matter :
[img]images/uploaded/image366.jpg[/img]
The 20 Hz or so that comes from it, really needs a subwoofer or two.
But since I have those ...

The Orphean MK-II is unrivaled I think. I doesn't matter where I go and what I hear, the Orphean outclasses it. Just go for it, you won't be sorry.

A 7 Watt 300B can easily drive them even in a much larger room than yours. Note that the BD15 comes with the BD30 amp with more than enough horsepower to drive the bass units.
Or maybe you can buy the (300B) LadyDays from Bert ...
Or when you REALLY want to do it well, get yourself a couple of CrazyA's ...

Cheers,
Peter

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Hi Richard,

I wouldn't worry too much about the power of your amp - low noise is the important thing. I have used 45 watt (single ended triode) amps with my Oris for years very happily, preferring them to most lower powered amps I have tried.

I'm not in a position to comment on the other systems, but if despite the WAF factor you still are able to consider the Oris 150 (some wives like them!), I am in New Zealand and (unfortunately) need to move mine on - if interested email me (soon) at:

tonishanks[at]hotmail[dot]com

All the best - you are on track for some outstanding sounds..

David

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Hi Richard,

Welcome to the club!

My budget is limited so I am disinclined to go with the Oris as the
drivers are expensive. Love to but has low WAF.:broken:

We do not want you to fight your wife, no need either as the Quasar and the Orphean are not huge and will fit nicely in your listening room. I am sure that many among us are jealous about your room!

I like the look of the Quasars and have the space (5.5 x 8 m). I
understand the OB may lack a little punch of a horn.

It will be less and not just because it does not use a horn but also because the drivers have to work harder due to the cancellation which is inherent to the OB design. They will surprise you anyhow though as the used drivers are not common hifi...

I have wondered about the Orpheans as the price is not too high. But the
114 dB/W/m is scary. What powered amps are people using for these? I
have a 20 W/ch amd was thinking of building a kit LD 300B SE amp with
about 9 W/ch. These amps might be far too much and need to have a lot of
attenuation.

The sensitivity is only scary if you give them the power...

But since amplifiers usually have a volume control then this can be prevented making it possible to connect a 1W or a 1000W amplifier. Quality is what counts, not the power rating. The only problem could be the input sensitivity of the chain making it more difficult to attenuate precisely as it might play too loud for a certain setting.

Using a passive pre-amplifier (no gain e.g. the CrazyV) usually helps.

Would the BD reference bass speaker be a good match for the Orpheans?

Yes and if the WAV allowed then the Ultra version will be optimal.

Later, is it an idea to add a sub? Any suggestions as I understand most
caNot keep up with BD speakers. I notice you feel live drums yet my
current system and others I have heard (SS and standard electrodynamic
speakers) do not give this. Is it practical to get more realism? Do BD
speakers do so anyway?

Adding a sub does do good things but only if there is something present in the recording providing those sub frequencies. For most music the Ultra is sufficient... :wink:

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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have a 20 W/ch amd was thinking of building a kit LD 300B SE amp with
about 9 W/ch. These amps might be far too much and need to have a lot of
attentuation.

In case you didn't notice, I have a pair of LD300B's as occasion for sale...which even was used to tune the Orphean MkI's. Very nice combo... :wink:

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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As others mentioned, number of watts really isn’t the important thing to consider, once you get over a certain threshold that “lights things up”. I suppose too many watts is not optimum either, like over 40 or so, because then it becomes harder to access the all-important “first watt” in a good way. In my observations bass and lower midrange can in many cases lack density and drive if using less than about 5 watts.

What you want to pay attention to is:
1) System noise
2) System gain

Notice I said “system” and not just “amplifier”.

As far as amplifiers, I have a very high gain pentode input Lux 300b amp that is less noisy than my 1.8 watt 45 based amps. So amplifier noise needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.

The gain of the amplifier needs to be matched to the rest of the system. Some source components have high gain, others lower gain. It can be helpful to have lower gain components when using the Orpheans. But it all depends on amp and preamp gain. I have another amp, 2.5 watts using 13em7 tubes, which only has 12db of gain, and it works great with higher output sources using the Orphean. I could even stick an active preamp in the system and things would be good, maybe better.

By the way, on the subject of preamp, like Bert, I’d recommend a TVC: no gain, sounds good. You really don’t want extra gain in the preamp with horns in almost all cases. And going back to 1), active preamps add noise.

My phono stage puts out 0.65 peak volts with my current cartridge. The Twindac, to give another example, I believe puts out 0.8 volts. It's gain is a good match for a lot of amps with Orphean or Oris Horns. Standard CD output is 2 volts.

The large size of your room will also absorb some of that higher efficiency, so to speak. Also, in that size room the Ultras will stress your bass system less. I have a pretty large volume room, with additional attached rooms in open plan. I have the Compact bass, which sounds deep, detailed, explosive, and strong, but I can see where more headroom would be even better.

So in general, with your large room, and as long as you have a passive preamp, in most amplifier cases you are going to be fine with the Orpheans. Bert’s LD300bs, for example, are 1.5 volt input sensitivity, and would be a good choice. After all, he designed the Orpheans using them as a baseline.

Pentode input/driver DHT amps are a fabulous match with the Orpheans. However, if you go that route, with the higher gain of pentodes, you are going to have to watch your source gain carefully. Standard 2 volt CD output might not give you enough clicks on the volume dial.

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Thanks Everyone,

I am not yet ready to take the plunge on new speakers. Have to work a little harder.

To summarise the comments and checking I got things right.

I understand that amplifier gain (and overal system gain) and quiteness are the keys rather than outright watts once you exceed a threshold. So Orpheans with my 20W/ch amp should do OK whilst I do a slow upgrade. Noise and too little attentuation control might be a problem but I guess could be "fixed" by a fixed attenuator; resistor potential divider. So I should not discount any of Bert's offerings based on amplifier power v sensitivity.

The Orpheans will be more "punchy" than the Quasars but this is not a huge difference more a subtle sound difference. The Orpheans match well with the BD bass and preferably with the horn for best integration (I might get that past my wife). The Quasars need no woofers and look to be the easiest to make.

A sub-woofer might be nice but could be a luxery for later due to the quality of Bert's systems and the lack of great amounts of information below what Bert's systems handle.

Now all I have to do is make a decision and get the purchase order OKed by my wife.

Thanks again everyone.

Cheers,

Richard.

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