Why should I Want to Build the Bicor 20? (Drive Units)

by chaos, Monday, March 30, 2009, 09:20 (3217 days ago)

Hello,
Hi, I'm new here on this forum.
I'm interested in the Lowther Bicor 20, a very small enclosure designed by Lowther, especially made for the DX45, DX55 or the DX65. I know very well this design wasn't made for huge bass frequencies. But I have a rather small room and play music on rather low levels. And I'm more interested in a complete and fast sound, free from coloration.

- Does anybody has any experience with these speakers?
- How do they sound?
- How do the different drivers (DX45, DX55 or the DX65) sound, is there a big difference between them?
- How do the Bicor 20 speakers with DX55 sound for example compared to the larger Bicor 200 with the EX2 or EX3?
- Is it true that 5 inch full-range drivers have less problems with 'shout'?
- Does anyone know obout other mature DIY-designs for these drivers, for example something like the Singular?
- Should I build these loudspeakers or focus on different designs like the Bicor 200 or the Singular, with 8 inch drivers like the EX2 or EX3?

I hope someone can answer a few of my questions, thank you!

chaos

Why should I Want to Build the Bicor 20?

by Gasper, Monday, March 30, 2009, 14:01 (3217 days ago) @ chaos

Dear Chaos!

I have "some" experiences with Lowther DX3 in Fidelio enclsure and I would like to sugest you to go with Singular - I think this would Bert know better...:blush:

For a small room I'll recomend you something like this:

http://www.bolha.com/oglas3356512/audiofilski-zvocniki-proac-1sc
:cool:
Regards,

Gasper.

Why should I Want to Build the Bicor 20?

by chaos, Monday, March 30, 2009, 14:41 (3217 days ago) @ Gasper

Thank you Gasper for your remarks,

I have "some" experiences with Lowther DX3 in Fidelio enclsure and I would like to sugest you to go with Singular - I think this would Bert know better...

Can you explain why the Singular would be a better choice than the Fidelio?

For a small room I'll recomend you something like this: http://www.bolha.com/oglas3356512/audiofilski-zvocniki-proac-1sc

My room is 6 by 3.5 meter. And I'm interested in fullrange speakers because of the problems I've experienced in the past with electronic filters. I made a few fullrange hornspeakers before, with a very small Fostex, a smal horn with the 3 inch Fostex FE83 and a bigger horn enclosure with the 4 inch Fostex FE103. I consider the FE83 to be better sounding, with clear high frequencies, although a little to small for enough bass, while the FE103 sounded dull and not tight enough and the bass had very little detail. That's why I'm now considering the Lowthers: I like the concept of the fullrange speakers, recognize the potential, but I think it is necessary to use very high quality drivers, better than de Fostexes I used before.

Kind regards,

chaos

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Small room?

by Bert @, Monday, March 30, 2009, 19:59 (3217 days ago) @ chaos

Hi Chaos,

My room is 6 by 3.5 meter.

That is not a small room and even considered as HUGE for many people... :yes:

I made a few fullrange hornspeakers before, with a very small Fostex, a smal horn with the 3 inch Fostex FE83 and a bigger horn enclosure with the 4 inch Fostex FE103. I consider the FE83 to be better sounding, with clear high frequencies, although a little to small for enough bass, while the FE103 sounded dull and not tight enough and the bass had very little detail.

I like the FE83 better too, very nice little bastard(!) but the FE103E's do not sound dull though and if the bass was not tight then blame it on the used horn design as horns usually dictate what the driver will be doing...

That's why I'm now considering the Lowthers: I like the concept of the fullrange speakers, recognize the potential, but I think it is necessary to use very high quality drivers, better than de Fostexes I used before.

A Lowther is a complete new world compared to Fostex drivers and it does not mean these are necessarily better for you though, not on all fronts at least and besides that, the drivers are rather critical to what you (can) feed them.

Quality in general can only be enjoyed or judged if it is properly implemented.

The smaller Lowthers do have some advantages over the traditional ones where some love it but others hate it...

Did you ever heard a Lowther play?

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Everything is relative

by chaos, Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 13:45 (3216 days ago) @ Bert

That is not a small room and even considered as HUGE for many people... :yes:

Okay, everything is relative...

I know very well this design wasn't made for huge bass frequencies. But I have a rather small room and play music on rather low levels.

It will be even less than you'd expect. What about no bass at all?

So a Bicor 200 for example will be better a better choice, even with a trace of bass, or with enough and detailed bass?

I like the FE83 better too, very nice little bastard(!) but the FE103E's do not sound dull though and if the bass was not tight then blame it on the used horn design as horns usually dictate what the driver will be doing...

The horn-design for the FE103E was quite an impulsive choice, I didn't know too much about what I was doing. Now I know for example that it takes a while before fullrange speakers sound good. But I was so disappointed about the sound and about the fact that the little son of friends pushed with his fingers on both of the drivers so that there was a dent in the paper cone (two days after I finished the loudspeakers!), that I gave the speakers to someone who did like the sound and still enjoys them. I chose to build the speakers after a enthousiast review in a German Hifi-magazine, I don't remember the name of the design and the magazine.

A Lowther is a complete new world compared to Fostex drivers and it does not mean these are necessarily better for you though, not on all fronts at least and besides that, the drivers are rather critical to what you (can) feed them.

What do you mean by a complete new world? A higher quality level? Or 'just' with different soundharacteristics?
My amplifier is a simple 15 watt Audio & Techniek class-A DIY machine (for a newer version, see: http://www.audio.nl/a18.htm), designed by John van der Sluis, used without pre-amplifier and just one CD-player (a Marantz SA CD 7001) connected to it, with VandenHull interlinks.

The smaller Lowthers do have some advantages over the traditional ones where some love it but others hate it...

My interest for the Bicor 20 was partly given in by my experience (with two-way speakers) that smaller units are faster, have less coloration (boom) and give more detail in the lower frequencies. And on the internet I read about more clear higher frequencies. Hatred is by the way not an emotion which I experience in contact with machines.

Did you ever heard a Lowther play?

No, unfortunately I haven't. That's exactly why I'm asking a few questions on this forum. I've seen on your website Bert that you mention the possibility of a visit in Nunspeet, so before buying or desiding anything, I will try to make an appointment for a visit if you don't mind. I live in the Netherlands, so there is no problem here.

chaos

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Better late than never...

by Bert @, Saturday, April 04, 2009, 11:56 (3212 days ago) @ chaos

So a Bicor 200 for example will be better a better choice, even with a trace of bass, or with enough and detailed bass?

To me bass is all below 80Hz and the Bicor's do not give much below that range...

The Hedlund gives a good balance (only bass above 50Hz or so!) and a bit more deeper bass can be retrieved from the Big Fun horn as examples. Both these horns are big and that is the only way to get some bass from a Lowther or similar build full-range driver.

What do you mean by a complete new world? A higher quality level? Or 'just' with different soundharacteristics?

Just completely different is most aspects. Best way to experience it is to have a listen to them, from there I can give you hints what to do related to that experience.

My amplifier is a simple 15 watt Audio & Techniek class-A DIY machine (for a newer version, see: http://www.audio.nl/a18.htm), designed by John van der Sluis, used without pre-amplifier and just one CD-player (a Marantz SA CD 7001) connected to it, with VandenHull interlinks.

I do not think that this will be a good combination with a Lowther, especially if you want to hear a complete and balanced sound without colouration.

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Better late than never...

by chaos, Monday, April 06, 2009, 10:30 (3210 days ago) @ Bert

Thank you Bert for your reaction. But how harsh: no Bicor at all and I've got an amplifier that doesn't fit with a Lowther. Is there any other full range unit I can use with my amplifier (mentioned above)? Or do I have to buy another amplifier? Bert, what's your advice in my case?

chaos

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Go out and have a listen...

by Bert @, Monday, April 06, 2009, 11:56 (3210 days ago) @ chaos

Hi Chaos,

Thank you Bert for your reaction. But how harsh: no Bicor at all and I've got an amplifier that doesn't fit with a Lowther. Is there any other full range unit I can use with my amplifier (mentioned above)? Or do I have to buy another amplifier? Bert, what's your advice in my case?

As said before, you should go and have a listen to a Lowther first to get the feeling/idea. It might even work okay for you to have a Lowther in a Bicor using your present amplifier...and if not at once then some "issues" can be cured for a more balanced sound.

A Lowther can be magical and if you are sensitive to that part (mostly in the midrange) then it does not matter much if there is hardly any bass present but if you're not too sensitive to that then it could be horrible. In that case you need to do more to get more out of it which can be done with a larger horn system, with a separate bass system (open panel principle) or even load the driver with an Oris horn and active bass system to get the most out of it.

It is all about balance and the person listening but I am sure your amplifier will fit somewhere in combination with many loudspeakers (possibly even a Lowther depending on the loading) but to my ears and present audiophile level (see my showroom) then a single Lowther in a Bicor does not meet my personal standards.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Go out and have a listen...

by chaos, Monday, April 06, 2009, 13:00 (3210 days ago) @ Bert

Okay Bert, thank you for your quick and detailed answers. Now I know where I'm standing and what I must find out and must hear before making a decision about drivers and enclosures and before buying anything.

chaos

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Why should I Want to Build the Bicor 20?

by Bert @, Monday, March 30, 2009, 15:43 (3217 days ago) @ chaos

Hello Chaos,

Hi, I'm new here on this forum.

Welcome!

And I'm more interested in a complete and fast sound, free from coloration.

Isn't this what we all want.. :cool:

I know very well this design wasn't made for huge bass frequencies. But I have a rather small room and play music on rather low levels.

It will be even less than you'd expect. What about no bass at all? :no:

Since you have a very small room it might be better to build a simple reflex enclosure or a less simple mass loaded TQWP with a Lowther...

BTW, why do you want to use a Lowther and what will you be using to play the speakers (type of amplifier, source, etc...). and what is the size of your room?

The Singular will probably be HUGE in your room if it is a small room.

I will be happy to help out but some related information to work with would save some time.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Ahum, too quick (or too slow?)

by Bert @, Monday, March 30, 2009, 15:45 (3217 days ago) @ Bert

I just noticed you new post which answers some of my questions...

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Why should I Want to Build the Bicor 20?

by Gasper, Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 15:56 (3216 days ago) @ chaos

Dear Chaos!

First of all you should :yes: listen Lowthers first, because they have a reputation of "LOVE or hate them". (It is like this: How to explain taste of the butter? you can not. You should try it!:idea:)

But in the Oris 150 horn they get such a pleasant character that even "hate them" people like them!

Small room? Get Oris150/Compact bass as soon as possible:clapping:

In Fidelio Lowther (DX3) sounds exactly like Lowter should (on 300B amp Of course) - nice. But this is not R'N'R....

You can made Bicor or something similar and than add some sub like ATS (K-horn).

Regards,

Gasper.

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