DIY Orelo (Orelo/Orelino)

by BS, Australia, Monday, November 05, 2012, 11:26 (1905 days ago)

Hi Bert,
I’m new to the forum. I love your new Orelo speakers! I dream about building a DIY copy - even if I don’t achieve the level of performance you do.

My biggest problem is probably the WAF factor! :) I've already partly mocked some up from cardboard boxes to give an idea of size.. Approval can’t be certain though!

Irrespective, I have a few questions, which i hope you don’t mind me asking? No problem if not..

As I understand it, the BD15 are open at the rear and being slot loaded by the front horn-wings. Is the front portion of the BD15's not visible through the slot firing into the back of the wings, and hence practically like an open driver baffle - with the horn slot in front of it, or are the non-visible front portions of the BD 15 sealed, so the BD15 fronts are fully sealed into the horn, or someother arrangement?

My immediate assumption was that drivers including the BD15 are all mounted on the flat baffle - with the horn wings not-coupled and just sitting infront.... but the X-Fi HighEnd review as per the discussion here; http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2283.0;all suggests that the drivers aren't mounted on the baffle and only shine through. Are you willing to confirm?

Similarly, is the AER full range driver (and Oris horn) fixed to the baffle, or does it also shine through.

In regards to the construction, are flat baffle with BD15 driver holes and the horn wings firmly coupled, and only the bass driver stack is totally separate. Or are the horn wings also moveable from the baffle, and are only placed the correct position?

Any information would are willing to share would be much aprpeciated!

Best regards
BS

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Monday, November 05, 2012, 19:52 (1904 days ago) @ BS

Hello BS,

I’m new to the forum. I love your new Orelo speakers! I dream about building a DIY copy - even if I don’t achieve the level of performance you do.

Welcome and thanks!

My biggest problem is probably the WAF factor! :) I've already partly mocked some up from cardboard boxes to give an idea of size.. Approval can’t be certain though!

Love is blind so it should not be a "big" problem. :grin:

As I understand it, the BD15 are open at the rear and being slot loaded by the front horn-wings. Is the front portion of the BD15's not visible through the slot firing into the back of the wings, and hence practically like an open driver baffle - with the horn slot in front of it, or are the non-visible front portions of the BD 15 sealed, so the BD15 fronts are fully sealed into the horn, or someother arrangement?

The fronts are "sealed" from the rear (not fully airtight but close enough).

Only the slots are open to the rear around the wings.

My immediate assumption was that drivers including the BD15 are all mounted on the flat baffle - with the horn wings not-coupled and just sitting infront.... but the X-Fi HighEnd review as per the discussion here; http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2283.0;all suggests that the drivers aren't mounted on the baffle and only shine through. Are you willing to confirm?

All BD15's are basically leaning against the front panel but can be mounted tight as well giving the same efficiency in the deeper bass.

Similarly, is the AER full range driver (and Oris horn) fixed to the baffle, or does it also shine through.

For the air the drivers are fixed to the baffle, mechanically they're not.

In regards to the construction, are flat baffle with BD15 driver holes and the horn wings firmly coupled, and only the bass driver stack is totally separate. Or are the horn wings also moveable from the baffle, and are only placed the correct position?

The system is constructed like most IKEA furniture to make it transportable.

Each channel has two rear panels and 4 wings bolted together.

Here is a picture showing more detail of the basic construction.

[image]

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

I like the look of the "half" Orelo in your pic...

by samoore @, Monday, November 12, 2012, 19:24 (1897 days ago) @ Bert

much more wife acceptance factor there than the full Orelo. :grin:

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It works well too...

by Bert @, Monday, November 12, 2012, 19:49 (1897 days ago) @ samoore

...about 2/3rd of the performance.

The drivers which are closer to the floor are more efficient in the deeper bass, the only drawback might be the loss of the true virtual center of the system. On the other hand the ears are not too sensitive at the relatively low crossover frequency...

If it increases the WAV so that it is accepted then this will be 300% better compared to a conventional bass systems and indeed, the looks are pretty good even if you only have half the system.

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

It works well too...

by Gasper, Monday, November 12, 2012, 20:59 (1897 days ago) @ Bert

Would be something similar achieved with just one BD15 - folded bass horn,... (with sub combo like mine AR)?

:bass: G.

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It works well too...

by Bert @, Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 00:14 (1897 days ago) @ Gasper

Would be something similar achieved with just one BD15 - folded bass horn,... (with sub combo like mine AR)?

The quality is also in the deeper bass (no enclosure and less room interference) and then 1 BD15 might not be enough and give more distortion than your present system.

Unless you do not play loud of course, then it could work but to my opinion the system will then be too weakened and has lost most of its advantage.

I never liked open panels before but that was because they could not deliver enough, with 2 BD15's in an Orelo sort of system it will be good, with 4 you'll have no thoughts left for anything else to try.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by anubisgrau, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 09:44 (1896 days ago) @ Bert

[image]


ooooh, luuuvvvllllyyyy!

this is what i've been thinking since the day one i saw the pics of the full system. half of it for a small rooms with a help of the walls and room nodes for the bass loading. i'm sure this is going to work for 99.99% normal listeners in anything under 40m2!!!

if i may add a question - what are you subjectively and objectively gaining running this as a dipole instead of closing the bass drivers in a cab on the back? OK less distortion i know but OTOH, i think you gonna load this much lower if you give them nice 180l or so in the back, which may be especially important if you run the halved version.

cheers

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 10:35 (1896 days ago) @ anubisgrau

what are you subjectively and objectively gaining running this as a dipole instead of closing the bass drivers in a cab on the back?

  • Much smaller foot print
  • Big but still elegant and absolutely not bulky looking
  • Cleaner bass - no enclosure!
  • Cleaner bass - much less prominent pressurising the room or exiting room nodes

i think you gonna load this much lower if you give them nice 180l or so in the back, which may be especially important if you run the halved version.

Not at all, you'll need at least 360 liter (there are 2 15 drivers!!!) and then still does it not go deeper. The open system seems to play even deeper in frequency (no enclosed air pressure shifting the lowest frequency up).

For most people (especially in a small room!) you'll have enough reserves with half the system while playing deep frequencies (normal use of course).

The extra enclosure at the back takes much more space than it will give extra useful output in return, especially in a small room where it is not needed!

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by anubisgrau, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 11:04 (1896 days ago) @ Bert

thanks bert, just two more questions - what do you reckon to be an efficiency of the halved system (2x15" per side) as well as a -3 point in the bass without added EQ?

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 11:12 (1896 days ago) @ anubisgrau

thanks bert, just two more questions - what do you reckon to be an efficiency of the halved system (2x15" per side) as well as a -3 point in the bass without added EQ?

About 112dB max (250Hz) with the -3dB corner at 120Hz or so? The roll off is relatively steep (dipole cancelation plus low Q driver).

Hard to put things in numbers (if possible!) as the room will have a major influence and the double effect of the used principle as well...

Better think that for your room you will have plenty of deep bass with half the Orelo. I have way more than enough for my room twice as big as yours with 4x BD15...

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by anubisgrau, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 12:08 (1896 days ago) @ Bert

you think it can go without any EQ?

if not than it looks like choosing a poison - EQ or putting a cab behind:)

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 13:26 (1896 days ago) @ anubisgrau

you think it can go without any EQ?

If you want bass then you will need EQ unless you will be using High Qts (>1) bass drivers.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by anubisgrau, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 12:12 (1896 days ago) @ Bert

About 112dB max (250Hz) with the -3dB corner at 120Hz or so? The roll off is relatively steep (dipole cancelation plus low Q driver).

sorry, i wasn't clear enough - the question was related to the bass system. what is a sensitivity of 2 BD15 in halved orelo?

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 13:28 (1896 days ago) @ anubisgrau

I guess I was not clear enough... I was talking about the bass.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

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DIY Orelo

by Rudy81 @, Dallas, TX, Friday, March 22, 2013, 07:26 (1768 days ago) @ Bert

Bert, would mechanically mounting the drivers to the baffle create any problems? I see that your drivers just 'lean' against the baffle, but then that requires a system to support the drivers, as you have built for your design.

Was there any acoustic reason for that choice?

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Friday, March 22, 2013, 20:59 (1767 days ago) @ Rudy81

Bert, would mechanically mounting the drivers to the baffle create any problems?

Absolutely no problem!

Was there any acoustic reason for that choice?

Mechanical energy coming from the frames and such are then isolated from the panel this way. Food for purists... :grin:

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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DIY Orelo

by Rudy81 @, Dallas, TX, Saturday, March 23, 2013, 05:39 (1767 days ago) @ Bert

Bert, thank you. I am looking forward to this little DIY project. Should be fun and relatively simple.

I will be using the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF drivers I currently have in my bass bins. I hope they will be good enough to be able and gather some response data.

DIY Orelo

by DeMarko @, Wednesday, January 09, 2013, 01:29 (1840 days ago) @ BS

Bert,

When? When will we see it?

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Wednesday, January 09, 2013, 13:03 (1840 days ago) @ DeMarko

When? When will we see it?

See what? What do you mean?

The picture here shows my own version, it can be copied as most DIY-ers do. :grin:

[image]

I have all the parts for sale and dimensions were published before...and guidance is for free. :cool:

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by BS, Australia, Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:16 (1839 days ago) @ Bert
edited by BS, Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:23

Hi DeMarko,

If the question is directed at me, unfortunately my intention to build some DIY Orelos has been put on hold for the time being. I’m currently living in a smallish rented apartment and the girl-friend suggested I wait until living in a more permanent location.

Luckily however, she agreed to me buying most of the required drivers now, and building an Open Baffle speaker – probably based around the Quasar MKII. That is, 2 x 15” BD15 and a single Full-Ranger per channel.

Bert’s been very helpful with my questions, both for my original intention – the DIY Orelos – and subsequently for the Quasar MKII/Open Baffles.

This week my 4 x BD15’s just arrived! And Bert’s just dispatched some AER MD3Bs.
:grin:

Packing was excellent, small wooden crates with a pair of BD15s inside, individually packed in cardboard inner boxes. The BD15 drivers look superb.:grin:

Thanks Bert!

BS

[image]
[image][image][image][image]

DIY Orelo

by DeMarko @, Saturday, January 12, 2013, 14:57 (1836 days ago) @ BS

Very nice! Good luck with building it. You can always take the speakers with you when you move :)

DIY Orelo

by DeMarko @, Saturday, January 12, 2013, 14:58 (1836 days ago) @ Bert

Bert, in this case I would need a quote on both the Quasar and half-Orelo :)

Is email better??

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Sunday, January 13, 2013, 17:11 (1835 days ago) @ DeMarko

Is email better??

Yep, let's talk through email... :good:

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Monday, January 21, 2013, 07:18 (1828 days ago) @ BS

Bert, thanks for the email and pic on this. It looks fantastic, well done.

Trying to get some ideas from the guys at the Altec Forum is hard work....you need to be a scientist to understand what they're saying.

But, I just love the simplicity of this Orelo horn.

Can you please provide a quick response to the following:

1. If only two drivers per side are used, do you need to put a 'top' on the bass horn? (I would use a mid horn mounted on top if so.) Sort of like the horn in this pic.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=hug&m=157178

2. You mentioned the Altec 416 woofer would work OK. I already have two new ones from Great Plains, so I'd need two more. Is this because it is a low q driver? Are there many differences between this driver and the specs of the BD woofer?

3. What is the depth, height and width of the 'half' horn?

4. How do I calculate the horn flare?

5. Can I run the horn up to 800Hz cleanly?

Thanks and regards.

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 10:24 (1827 days ago) @ Atilsley

Hi Andrew,

1. If only two drivers per side are used, do you need to put a 'top' on the bass horn? (I would use a mid horn mounted on top if so.) Sort of like the horn in this pic.

You could do that but this will give a boost in the midbass which should then be EQ-ed out for an even response.

2. You mentioned the Altec 416 woofer would work OK. I already have two new ones from Great Plains, so I'd need two more. Is this because it is a low q driver? Are there many differences between this driver and the specs of the BD woofer?

I do not have the spec's of your driver but the design is not related to the parameters of the used driver. The better quality (soundwise) the better result in the end. The design is acting as a sort of magnifying glass, it is not a true horn.

3. What is the depth, height and width of the 'half' horn?

http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=17017

4. How do I calculate the horn flare?

Its not a horn, it is a wave guide without loading at the rear. It is therefore not as efficient as a true horn but in return you'll have a bass free of colourations and a lot less room boundairy problems with twice the efficiency as a simple flat open baffle system.

5. Can I run the horn up to 800Hz cleanly?

If the driver is capable and if the surface in front (horn throat) equals the driver then yes.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 21:08 (1826 days ago) @ Bert

Thanks bert.

Can you expand a little re your last point about 800hz xover and throat.

I would have throat 170mm wide x the height of the half cabinet (1000mm?).

Can you also clarify aporox driver hole cut out sizes. For altec, I may follow the VOTT A5 or similar, but your input appreciated.

Andrew

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 21:23 (1826 days ago) @ Atilsley

Can you expand a little re your last point about 800hz xover and throat.

I would have throat 170mm wide x the height of the half cabinet (1000mm?).

Yes, 1000mm or a bit higher/lower depending on your preference having the midrange located.

Throat is 170mm wide as it equals the 2x 850cm2 of the used BD15 drivers giving the throat of the wave guide the same starting area.

Can you also clarify aporox driver hole cut out sizes. For altec, I may follow the VOTT A5 or similar, but your input appreciated.

Just make these as tall as you can (the inner edge of the frame), the width equals the width of the horns throat.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 02:46 (1826 days ago) @ Bert

Thanks...just to clarify, what is the 'height' of the driver cut-out for your BD woofer...looks like 220-250mm from the drawing.

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360mm to be exact... (nt)

by Bert @, Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 14:15 (1825 days ago) @ Atilsley
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 11:21

- No text -

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

360mm to be exact...

by Atilsley, Monday, January 28, 2013, 10:36 (1821 days ago) @ Bert

Bert, what is the height of the 'half' cabinet? I'm working to 1000mm.

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360mm to be exact...

by Bert @, Monday, January 28, 2013, 21:29 (1820 days ago) @ Atilsley

Bert, what is the height of the 'half' cabinet? I'm working to 1000mm.

Here it is 1050mm but 1000mm is okay as well...

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

360mm to be exact...

by Atilsley, Thursday, January 31, 2013, 12:54 (1818 days ago) @ Bert

Bert, I know we touched on this before...but I'm trying to make an important decision on the xover point. I can get my horns down to about 800Hz...but preferred option is 1200Hz.

The Altec 416's have no problems goin to 1200Hz...but want to make sure the Oriels will cater for this higher point.

Regards.

Andrew

360mm to be exact...

by Atilsley, Saturday, February 02, 2013, 00:32 (1816 days ago) @ Atilsley

Here are two designs I am working on....I have sourced a new Decware 8 inch driver.

[image][image]

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360mm to be exact...

by Bert @, Saturday, February 02, 2013, 20:24 (1815 days ago) @ Atilsley

The first one with the horn on top would be my first choice... ;-)

Unless you have a full Orelo, then the second one will be much more in favour!

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

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360mm to be exact...

by Bert @, Saturday, February 02, 2013, 20:23 (1815 days ago) @ Atilsley

Hi Andrew,

The Altec 416's have no problems goin to 1200Hz...but want to make sure the Oriels will cater for this higher point.

Stretching to the limits is never a good idea but having one woofer relative close to the floor and not focussing up towards your listening position it should do okay. Some interference will always be there but since 1200 Hz will be mostly forward (beaming) then the interaction will be much less inside your listening window. 800Hz or even better 400Hz would give more focus coming from the top horns though improving imaging.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Monday, February 11, 2013, 11:21 (1807 days ago) @ Atilsley

New build on half Orelo starts.

I've cut 16 individual flares which I will jig-saw....based on MDF template.

36 individual 300mm 'risers' will be used to build up the frame.

I dummied up a 300Hz wooden horn for the Decware 8 inch full range drivers...the horn is based on the Lowther TP1 dimensions. Sound very good. Visaton tweeter on horn runs from 5,000Hz.

[image][image][image]

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Monday, February 11, 2013, 14:12 (1807 days ago) @ Atilsley

Hey Andrew,

Looks all very familiar... :cool:

When you have those pieces together then most work is done!

Keep us posted!

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Monday, February 11, 2013, 21:59 (1806 days ago) @ Bert

Ha...I was wondering how you built up your flares.

I'll use 2-3 layers of 4-6mm MDF, with the final layer being veneered ply.

I'll then trim the sides.

The baffle will be 25mm birch ply, which will be deep screwed into the back of the flares.

Did you add any cross bracing?

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DIY Orelo

by Bert @, Tuesday, February 12, 2013, 15:04 (1805 days ago) @ Atilsley

Did you add any cross bracing?

The layers of MDF (both sides?) for the curve should provide enough bracing I guess...

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Thursday, February 14, 2013, 11:58 (1804 days ago) @ Bert

Frame # 1 glued/nailed tonight.[image]

DIY Orelo

by Atilsley, Sunday, February 24, 2013, 04:53 (1794 days ago) @ Atilsley

All 4 frames now done.[image]

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DIY Orelo

by Rudy81 @, Dallas, TX, Friday, March 22, 2013, 06:57 (1768 days ago) @ Atilsley

Very nice project. I am considering this same 'half height' project, mated with my Oris 150s. Any progress on your project, Atilsley? Let us know your impressions once you get to test the system.

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