Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System. (BD-Design)

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, September 22, 2013, 19:58 (1579 days ago)

I currently have a pair Of Welborne 2a3 Moondog Monoblocks that I would like to power the Orphean Horn with.

I also have a pair of Welborne 300B laurel Monoblocks that I would like to power my Klipsch Bass Bins with.

I am trying to figure out if the Filters for the Orphean is all I need to integrate the Orphean horns into my system.

I am guessing not and will probably need an active crossover such as one made by Marchand Electronics. And probably a passive crossover for the Orphean Horn itself.

I definitely need some advice.

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Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Bert @, Sunday, September 22, 2013, 20:30 (1579 days ago) @ Kevin

I currently have a pair Of Welborne 2a3 Moondog Monoblocks that I would like to power the Orphean Horn with.

No problem. The output of these amplifiers should be connected to the input of the filter. The outputs of thise filters than come with the Orphean should be connected to the driver, nothing else.

I also have a pair of Welborne 300B laurel Monoblocks that I would like to power my Klipsch Bass Bins with.

Okay, that rules out the Hypex with dedicated DSP crossover with dedicated amps on board.

I am trying to figure out if the Filters for the Orphean is all I need to integrate the Orphean horns into my system.

Not enough. The filter for the Orphean ONLY filter the driver of the Orphean itseld (splitting mid- and high frequencies). For the bass you'll need a dedicated filter/crossover.

I am guessing not and will probably need an active crossover such as one made by Marchand Electronics. And probably a passive crossover for the Orphean Horn itself.

Indeed but the passive crossover is already included within the Orphean package.

Is your Welborne Labs 2A3 amp silent? No hum or hiss on your present horns?

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, September 22, 2013, 20:44 (1579 days ago) @ Bert

Yes, my 2a3 moondogs are dead silent through my altec 109db horns.

also, if I have to get an active crossover, would it make sense to forego the orphean package and just buy the horns and drivers?

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Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Bert @, Monday, September 23, 2013, 09:08 (1578 days ago) @ Kevin

Yes, my 2a3 moondogs are dead silent through my altec 109db horns.

Are these still dead silent when connected to your Klipsch bass horn?

also, if I have to get an active crossover, would it make sense to forego the orphean package and just buy the horns and drivers?

Nope, you will always need the passive crossover as this is part of a tuned system with EQ's included in the crossover (see the Orphean as a system).

Using the horns and drivers with just a crossover will not sound well...

With the Orphean you will only need a bass system tuned towards this system and you're done. Best way to do this (if your 2A3's are silent in the bass too!) is to use the Hypex as suggested before to make it all work.

Just an active crossover for the bass and using your other Welborne Labs amp migth work too but is hardly as flexible and I do not believe it will give any further improvement anyhow.

But you'll have to take my word for that as it will be impossible to explain with words. Just listen and try this yourself will explain a whole lot more.

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Monday, September 23, 2013, 14:00 (1578 days ago) @ Bert

So, you are saying that the best/only way to make the Orphean System work is to buy these Plate Amplifiers? Even if they bought your bass system? - I have access to an active crossover and was not keen on getting another pair of amps. A friend of mine has an Oris Horn, Altec Bass Bin and is getting good results. Maybe I should look at one of your other horns 150, 200 -- Hard to tell from your website.

Also, The 'plate amplifiers' are a bit weird to me. I can't very well just park them into my rack. I would have to have another project of building a case for them. They don't seem to offer any case. And I am not about to carve a hole into my bass bin to mount them in. So, the whole thing is looking like a Kluge to me at this point.

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Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Bert @, Monday, September 23, 2013, 14:17 (1578 days ago) @ Kevin

I have access to an active crossover and was not keen on getting another pair of amps.

Then go that route. It will work okay too I guess but you'll need another amplifier too and for optimal integration (using the output of the main amp as signal for the bass section) this should NOT be a tube amp.

Of course you can use a pre-amp if you like and still get good results, do whatever you prefer.

I am only trying to explain the best possible and most flexible way to get the most optimal sound. You can do whatever you prefer though but do not hang that on me if things do not work out...

Also, The 'plate amplifiers' are a bit weird to me. I can't very well just park them into my rack. I would have to have another project of building a case for them. They don't seem to offer any case. And I am not about to carve a hole into my bass bin to mount them in. So, the whole thing is looking like a Kluge to me at this point.

A simple case should not be too difficult to make for a DIY-er but again, feel free to use anything else if it gives you too much hasle.

The Orphean is a system playing from 270Hz up to 22kHz. The bass has to be tuned towards that (crossover plus gain) which can be done in many ways.

If you feel insecure then you can also go for a similar system as your friends and be happy with that.

You asked for the best option and that is what I gave as suggestion. There are also other horns using full-range drivers ranging from Fostex up to AER's with their own mysteries...

:grazy:

Bert

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 20:35 (1577 days ago) @ Bert

Are there any 'Non Plate' Solid state amplifiers that you like, that you don't have to build a case for?

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Gasper @, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 21:12 (1577 days ago) @ Kevin

I heve used Naim NAP 135 monoblocks for bass...

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by samoore @, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 23:08 (1577 days ago) @ Kevin

Any quality SS amp should do the trick.

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 23:24 (1577 days ago) @ samoore
edited by Kevin, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 23:59

If I am running my Khorn Bass Bins with Altec Horns currently with just a 2a3 amp that has 2.3 watts per channel or my 45 amp with 1.8 watts per channel and have enough Bass (And these are not even Bi-Amped, but are used for all three drivers), why is a Solid State amp the 'only way to go' for just the Bass Bin?

I am definitely going to try bi-amping as I think it will improve some dynamics, but my bass response is fine.

I would think my 300b amps with 8 watts per channel would suffice. Or maybe I'm missing something?

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by samoore @, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 08:14 (1576 days ago) @ Kevin

I think this is a bit different situation than normal bi-amping, where you would want the two amps to have similar sonic signatures. Can we agree that, in general, SS amps control woofers a bit better due to damping factor? The issue here is that with the Oris/Orphean you are taking the speaker tap signal from the horn amp, knocking it down to line level, putting it through a low pass filter and then amplifying it again for the woofer. If you have two SET tube amps in line then you have the bass character of the horn amp feeding overlaying the bass characteristics of the second amp. This may lead to "loose" bass. The idea behind using a SS amp for the bass is that you get better control over the woofer while retaining the character of the main/horn amp. I use a 45 SET to drive my horn and then a 200W Aragon 4004 to drive the bass. It works great for me, the best of both worlds. Of course you can try any variation of amps and get good results. However, for optimum results I would listen to Bert. After owning several versions of his speakers over the last ten years I can say that he really knows his stuff. :grin:

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 13:38 (1576 days ago) @ samoore

I don't know what you mean by having 2 SET amps 'In-Line'

Here is the configuration that I am going to.

[image]

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Gasper @, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 14:12 (1576 days ago) @ Kevin

Does the signal source have a volume control? If not :dntknw: will you always attenuate bass and mids/high...

If you will use BD-Design horn for mid/high I recomend you NOT to use high-pass as you wil destroy all dynamics and impact...:no:

Did you see my sketch:wink:

G.:cool:

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 16:55 (1576 days ago) @ Gasper

Yes, the signal source has volume control.
and, if went with the orphean horn system, I would use the orphean hi-pass filter instead.
yes, I saw your schetch. I would still like to see a schetch of how the orphean horn system should be hooked up

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Gasper @, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 17:21 (1576 days ago) @ Kevin

Signal source - your tube amp - orphean filter - orphean horn

Same sketch as you draw without high pass filter...

:good:

G.

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Wednesday, September 25, 2013, 17:26 (1576 days ago) @ Gasper

I thought that bert said that bass was also attached to his filter.

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Thursday, September 26, 2013, 01:24 (1575 days ago) @ Gasper

What do you think of this little amp for the Bass?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=310-326

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Never use a Tripath for bass...

by Bert @, Thursday, September 26, 2013, 16:29 (1575 days ago) @ Kevin

...valve-like already should tell you something already.

My best advise to you is to go with the flow and stick to that or be dissapointed for trying to figure out things for yourself.

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Never use a Tripath for bass...

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Friday, September 27, 2013, 01:32 (1574 days ago) @ Bert

So you prefer Class "D" amplifiers for the Bass?

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Never use a Tripath for bass...

by Bert @, Friday, September 27, 2013, 11:23 (1574 days ago) @ Kevin

I prefer class D over Tripath and over Tube amps.

Assuming that the specific class D amp is working properly without spreading too much switching noise all over the place.

Solid State amplifiers are mostly not better too but some are.

If you are on a budget then explore Gain Clone amplifiers, these basically give good quality in the bass (as amp within an Orphean or Oris system as explained before).

The amp for the bass should act as a wire and control the driver and not sounding "nice" having a specific character, that is what your main amplifier should provide if you chose that path...

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Gasper @, Thursday, September 26, 2013, 17:29 (1575 days ago) @ Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I am selling BD30 bass amps with Reckhorn S1 which would be perfect in your case... see post below (BD30/S1)...

:wink:
Gasper

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Thursday, September 26, 2013, 21:57 (1575 days ago) @ Gasper

And what would make these 'perfect' for me?

I Googled them and could find no information on them.

Do you have a link to any information on these amps?

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by Gasper @, Friday, September 27, 2013, 08:16 (1574 days ago) @ Kevin

You won't find a lot! This are BD-Design amps specially designed for bass aplications. They are 50W and have a bunch of Black Gate caps (red ones). Works well with bass like your Klipsch. Reckhorn S1 - information can be find on web at reckhorn's web.

:wink:

G.

Integrating the Orphean Horn into my System.

by samoore @, Thursday, September 26, 2013, 06:47 (1575 days ago) @ Kevin

I was describing what would happen if you used Bert's Orphean/Bass configuration, not the one you are proposing to use. He recommends a SS amp for the bass in his configuration.

Bert's Configuration:

Source-----Horn Amp----Horn Crossover----Orphean Horn
...................|
...................|
............Bass filter----SS Bass amp----driver

Correct me...

by Gasper @, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 10:59 (1577 days ago) @ Kevin

...if I am wrong:
[image]
:read:
Gasper.

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Looks okay to me as basic setup... (nt)

by Bert @, Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 14:22 (1577 days ago) @ Gasper
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 11:04

- No text -

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BD-Design - Only the Best!

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