Orphean MkIII (Orphean)

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 12:56 (1541 days ago)

I will finally be getting my active crossover this week and will be able to try bi-amping. if successful, AI can move on to the Orphean. Some Questions.

1.) If I ordered a pair of Orphean next month, what would be the lead time for arrival in the U.S. at my home?

2.) Would I be getting the Upgraded Crossover that you just mentioned?

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 13:44 (1541 days ago) @ Kevin

1.) If I ordered a pair of Orphean next month, what would be the lead time for arrival in the U.S. at my home?

2-3 weeks

2.) Would I be getting the Upgraded Crossover that you just mentioned?

If these are ready for reproduction for that use then yes. If not then all depends on the time needed for those...

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 23:49 (1540 days ago) @ Bert

Well, if I ordered a pair now with the current crossovers. Would I have to pay more for an upgraded set, when the upgraded ones were "ready for reproduction"?

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 06:15 (1540 days ago) @ Kevin

Well, if I ordered a pair now with the current crossovers. Would I have to pay more for an upgraded set, when the upgraded ones were "ready for reproduction"?

Price will be the same but in case of an upgrade it will be exchanging one for the other and that will cost extra.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 12:49 (1540 days ago) @ Bert
edited by Kevin, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 13:00

How much extra are we talking about?

You seem to be encouraging me to delay my order. In other words "Wait until you have the upgrade ready". That is the cheaper alternative that you are giving me.

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 15:02 (1540 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 16:32

How much extra are we talking about?

350 Euro plus shipping.

You seem to be encouraging me to delay my order. In other words "Wait until you have the upgrade ready". That is the cheaper alternative that you are giving me.

Not delaying orders, only delaying delivery! You'll be the first in line if you would place the first order (FIFO).

Play with the active crossover first and see if you like what you can hear. I do hope that you have a load of settings though because just a simple 6/12/18/24dB crossover will not work well at all.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 15:26 (1540 days ago) @ Bert

Here is what I talking about. You indicated in another post the the price for the upgraded crossover would be the same as the current one. If I order an Orphean now with the current crossover, and then upgrade at a later date it will cost me another 350 Euro.

However, If I would wait until your upgraded crossover comes out. I would pay the same price with no upgrade price. Do I have this right?

BTW - The crossover I am getting today is the Marchand XM66.

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 16:51 (1540 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 16:33

Here is what I talking about. You indicated in another post the the price for the upgraded crossover would be the same as the current one.

Indeed it is the same price as it will replace the MkII.

If I order an Orphean now with the current crossover, and then upgrade at a later date it will cost me another 350 Euro.

If the MkII version would be delivered and later upgraded to the MkIII then yes, it will cost extra but not if you order and I do not send anything until the new filter is ready for delivery.

BTW - The crossover I am getting today is the Marchand XM66.

Nice but only very limited useful. The only thing you can do is crossing over and that only works if both speakers (bass- and mid) act perfectly meaning that the bass plays perfectly flat in frequency amplitude and phase up to at least one octave above the desired crossover frequency and the same for the midrange but then one octave down.

Your Klipsch does not and your midrange horn complies neither so you'll end up with a nice sounding compromise if you're lucky.

I hope you can measure what you will be doing and fully understand the readings as well because if you don't then you'll only be wondering in the dark having no idea where to go and where it will end.

BTW, the Marchand crossover is basically useless in combination with the Orphean system which has its own high-pass crossover frequency set to 271Hz and therefore needs the full frequency bandwidth from at least 135Hz and up.

You can still use it for the bass to tune it somewhat towards the Orphean but that is basically all.

Good luck, I hope things work out for you!

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Thursday, October 31, 2013, 19:20 (1538 days ago) @ Bert

" BTW, the Marchand crossover is basically useless in combination with the Orphean system which has its own high-pass crossover frequency set to 271Hz and therefore needs the full frequency bandwidth from at least 135Hz and up."

So are you saying with the Orphean system, you only need a Bass Amp and High-end amp, and all of the Crossover points are handled by the Orphean Filter?

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Thursday, October 31, 2013, 19:31 (1538 days ago) @ Kevin

So are you saying with the Orphean system, you only need a Bass Amp and High-end amp, and all of the Crossover points are handled by the Orphean Filter?

The bass section will still need its own crossover and amplifier tuned to the Orphean.

The suggested Hypex or other DSP based crossover with amp and up to a certain point the Marchand will do.

The Orphean has its own built-in crossover/EQ for optimal performance in the Orphean horns which includes crossing out the low frequencies.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Thursday, October 31, 2013, 23:11 (1538 days ago) @ Bert
edited by Kevin, Thursday, October 31, 2013, 23:20

So, I still need the Marchand Crossover with the Orphean, even though "It's almost Useless"?

My whole life has been "A compromise", so I would not expect my Stereo System to be anything but.

I am sure that you would not approve of what I am currently listening to. But, believe it or not I have been enjoying music from my present system for over 10 years. I am not an audio engineer, and do not own any measuring equipment other than my ears (Which are also less than perfect).

But, maybe you could draw me a Simple Layout of how the Orphean is hooked up to an existing Bass Bin with a Couple of Amplifiers. Then I could kluge together a less than perfect system with my existing components?

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Orphean MkIII

by Bert @, Friday, November 01, 2013, 00:03 (1538 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 16:33

So, I still need the Marchand Crossover with the Orphean, even though "It's almost Useless"?

Nothing needed for the Orphean! If you hook it up to an amplifier then it will play from 271Hz and up without any restrictions.

The bass system needs the crossover to take out all frequencies above 271Hz and to adjust the gain/volume to the same level the Orphean is playing.

I am sure that you would not approve of what I am currently listening to.

You should know what I have enjoyed in the passed, things I can't bear for a minute these days! Things just develop and the reference follows the learning curve and its hard to go back once used to the improvements!

But if you like what you hear then who am I to argue? I am just giving idea's how it would work out optimally for me for a given situation.

But, maybe you could draw me a Simple Layout of how the Orphean is hooked up to an existing Bass Bin with a Couple of Amplifiers. Then I could kluge together a less than perfect system with my existing components?

I will but not now (bed time!)...

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Saturday, November 02, 2013, 23:11 (1536 days ago) @ Bert

" But, maybe you could draw me a Simple Layout of how the Orphean is hooked up to an existing Bass Bin with a Couple of Amplifiers."

"I will but not now (bed time!)...

Bert"

Maybe now?

Orphean MkIII

by Gasper @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 10:02 (1536 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:36

Look this http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=17360 .

See also how is Hypex connected:
[image]
Little black box just "supports" connectors...

Orphean MkIII

by Gasper @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 10:33 (1536 days ago) @ Gasper

...and all connected:
[image]
If you will use Orphean horn you have to add Orphen's crossover between "my black box" (which I explained in previous topic) and Orphean horn (NOT TO USE IT AS BASS CROSSOVER).

Instead of using DSP (for what you have to have some measuring equipment and some know-how; BTW Hypex which I am using is DSP and 800W amp in one box) you can simply use bass plate amp (subwoofer plate amp) but it must have adjustable crossover frequency up to 300Hz at least.

Gasper.

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 15:08 (1536 days ago) @ Gasper
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:36

Thanks for your reply. A couple questions.

1.) Where did you get the White Box that holds the Hypex? Can I buy them somewhere?

2.) Since you have to have 2 of the Hypex Boxes. What is your Audio Input to each Hypex? Just one Channel each? Left and Right?

Orphean MkIII

by Gasper @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 18:28 (1535 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:37

Thanks for your reply. A couple questions.

1.) Where did you get the White Box that holds the Hypex? Can I buy them somewhere?

DIY at local hobby store


2.) Since you have to have 2 of the Hypex Boxes. What is your Audio Input to each Hypex? Just one Channel each? Left and Right?

as monoblock (both ams in Hypex are in bridget mode)....

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 18:45 (1535 days ago) @ Gasper
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:37

Thanks for your reply.

I have downloaded the manual, but I am very confused as to where the connections are made. I see a 'Audio Input' to the Hypex, but it looks like this is where you have your speaker connections to.

1.) If I were to Bi-amp with this under my current system. I have a left and right channel signal coming out of my pre-amp. Would I hook each channel into the Hypex? Where does the Signal input connect to the Hypex?
2.) Where does the Bass Speaker hook to the Hypex.
3.) Does my Horn and Tweeter Amplifier also hook to the Hypex? Where would they hook up to?

Orphean MkIII

by Gasper @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 19:33 (1535 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:39

Thanks for your reply.

I have downloaded the manual, but I am very confused as to where the connections are made. I see a 'Audio Input' to the Hypex, but it looks like this is where you have your speaker connections to.

You can use Audio Input to feed it with signal from amin amp (with some limitations)


1.) If I were to Bi-amp with this under my current system. I have a left and right channel signal coming out of my pre-amp. Would I hook each channel into the Hypex? Where does the Signal input connect to the Hypex?

I would not use Hypex for Biamp. Just use it for bass. You need one Hypex for left and one for right chanel...

2.) Where does the Bass Speaker hook to the Hypex.

[img]images/uploaded/201311031925195276950f3c57f.jpg[/img]
Inside of Hypex are connectors...

3.) Does my Horn and Tweeter inputs also hook to the Hypex? Where would they hook up to?

No, use Hypex just for bass. Feed Orpheans with main amp...

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 19:41 (1535 days ago) @ Gasper
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:39

OK,

Then I assume that you need 100% of the Audio Signal going to the Hypex and also to the Main Amplifer? Correct? How do you accomplish this? With a 'Y' Connector coming off the Pre-amp?

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Reset?

by Bert @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 19:42 (1535 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:40

Kevin,

You are mixing things in your head and confusing not just us but yourself as well...

1.) If I were to Bi-amp with this under my current system. I have a left and right channel signal coming out of my pre-amp. Would I hook each channel into the Hypex? Where does the Signal input connect to the Hypex?

Who is talking about a pre-amp? Did you check the drawing made by Gasper?

2.) Where does the Bass Speaker hook to the Hypex.

Same here, see the pictures provided by Gasper

3.) Does my Horn and Tweeter Amplifier also hook to the Hypex? Where would they hook up to?

Horn and tweeter, which horn and tweeter? Your own or are you talking about the Orphean?

Sorry Kevin but most things are self explaining; the Hypex manual should be clear and the drawing Gasper made should be clear as well! If you can't grasp that then it would be advised not to get involved with equipment you do not understand. You should have some technical insight to be able to connect the dots so to speak...

Or start a new topic and be clear in how far you want to go using the suggested equipment in a new system like using it in combination with the Orphean or just using the Hypex within your present system because you want to try an active approach?

So far your questioning seems to lead to nowhere so perhaps a different angle might get things clear? What is it that you are looking for?

Perhaps it would be better get some ready constructed things and be happy with that...?

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Reset?

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 19:52 (1535 days ago) @ Bert
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:40

Well, I want to make sure what I want and need before I start ordering the Gear.

1.) I had no problem hooking up the Marchand XM66. Two ouputs (left and right channel) coming out of the Pre-amp as input to the crossover. And 4 Leads coming out of the crossover. (2 outputs for Low Freqs and 2 outputs for Mids/High Freqs.) This is Bi-Amping.

2.) You think my Marchand is "Useless" for the Orphean, and since I cannot get delivery of the Orphean III version yet, I was exploring using the Hypex for bi-amping my Current system, until the Orphean III is ready for delivery. Ordering it now works for you, but does not work for the customer. It would also give me chance to familiarize myself with the software settings currently.

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Reset?

by Bert @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 20:20 (1535 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Bert, Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 17:41

Well, I want to make sure what I want and need before I start ordering the Gear.

1.) I had no problem hooking up the Marchand XM66. Two ouputs (left and right channel) coming out of the Pre-amp as input to the crossover. And 4 Leads coming out of the crossover. (2 outputs for Low Freqs and 2 outputs for Mids/High Freqs.) This is Bi-Amping.

Yes, but feeding an amplifier the full frequency spectrum and splitting the signal after this amplifier is another way to create an active system without the need for a pre-amplifier. Usage this way gives the main amplifier a dual use; feeding the bass amplifier and feeding the main speaker (Orphean or your present horns and tweeters).

Crossovers are not yet implemented but these should be connected in front of the bass system (Hypex for example) and in front of the mid-high section (the crossover for the Orphean as example).

The above suggestions gives the best tonal integration (used with a clean sounding solid state amplifier like the Hypex).

Never use a second tube amp this way because the bass section will adapt the qualities (or things you do not like) and passes these through.

Of course you can also use a pre-amplifier in case your main amplifier makes too much noise (hummmmm) or has an uncontrolled and undefined bass.

2.) You think my Marchand is "Useless" for the Orphean, and since I cannot get delivery of the Orphean III version yet, I was exploring using the Hypex for bi-amping my Current system, until the Orphean III is ready for delivery. Ordering it now works for you, but does not work for the customer. It would also give me chance to familiarize myself with the software settings currently.

You can use the Marchand to take out all high frequencies for the bass system and to take out all low frequencies from your current mid-high system as you do now. For the Orphean it is not needed (not advised either!) to take out the low frequencies so only half of the Marchand can be used effectively.

Therefore it is not useless but a better plan would be to go for the Hypex giving more freedom in settings and options. You can already start with the Hypex now and leave the crossover section for the mid-high frequencies intact.

You should by-pass the crossover section inside the bass bin though but I am sure that it is clear that the Hypex is taking over that section.

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Orphean MkIII

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 17:36 (1535 days ago) @ Gasper

Also, on this Hypex Unit.

1.) Can you Bi-amp with the Hypex alone? (Does it function as an Amp and a Crossover?)
2.) How do you control the volume of the Hypex? .... With a PC?

Orphean MkIII

by Gasper @, Sunday, November 03, 2013, 18:25 (1535 days ago) @ Kevin

Also, on this Hypex Unit.

1.) Can you Bi-amp with the Hypex alone? (Does it function as an Amp and a Crossover?)

Yes, yes

2.) How do you control the volume of the Hypex? .... With a PC?

with softwear

You can get all the info at:
http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-44-01/2012-11-23-13-46-04/psc2-400.html
and
http://www.hypex.nl/downloads/product-downloads.html (open pdf at PSC2.400 or 2.700 to get Manual)...

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