Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo (BD-Design)

by GC, Thursday, March 10, 2005, 17:00 (4701 days ago)

Hello, long-time lurker, 1st-time poster here.

I have a Oris 200 kit and want to use a Khorn bass bin with it. The Oris horns will be driven with tube amps (1-8 watts) and each bass bin with a 70-100 watt "chip" amp. The plan is to split the signal from the horn amp and send it through a low-pass filter to the bass amp.

The Khorn bass bin is normally crossed at 450Hz which I believe is just below its natural roll-off but it begins to add distortions in the mid to upper bass.

Can anyone suggest a good approach to combine these 2 horns? If I were to use an AER MD-2 driver or the like, where would the optimum cut-off be (generally speaking)? How might that change with a Fostex driver? Would it be of any benefit to use a 150 horn instead of the 200 and how would that change the cut-off?

I'm just getting started here so I'd appreciate any advise and suggestions offered.

Thanks! -Bryan

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Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 02:01 (4701 days ago) @ GC

Hi, JBryan,

I don't know if my experience will be helpful to you, but since I am using similar speakers I will tell you how I am doing it.

I am listening to Oris 150 horns driven by AER MD3s powered by Cary Audio 2A3 SET monoblocks and Klipschorn bass corner horns powered by NYAL Moscode 600 hybrid amps. A DEQX PDC 2.6 digital crossover/time alignment/equalizer/room correction device ties things together.

Before I got the DEQX I had no luck at all getting the transition between the Klipschorns and the Oris 150s to be close enough to seamless for the system to be listenable. With the DEQX, espescially its time alignment capabilities, the transition became virtually seamless and the sound became wonderful. It might be possible to accomplishment the same sort of sound by "old fashioned" means, but I wasn't able to do so.

Good Listening,
Don Reid

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Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo

by robmatthew @, Wednesday, June 14, 2006, 23:13 (4240 days ago) @ GC

Hi, JBryan,

I don't know if my experience will be helpful to you, but since I am
using similar speakers I will tell you how I am doing it.

I am listening to Oris 150 horns driven by AER MD3s powered by Cary
Audio 2A3 SET monoblocks and Klipschorn bass corner horns powered by NYAL
Moscode 600 hybrid amps. A DEQX PDC 2.6 digital crossover/time
alignment/equalizer/room correction device ties things together.

Before I got the DEQX I had no luck at all getting the transition
between the Klipschorns and the Oris 150s to be close enough to seamless
for the system to be listenable. With the DEQX, espescially its time
alignment capabilities, the transition became virtually seamless and the
sound became wonderful. It might be possible to accomplishment the same
sort of sound by "old fashioned" means, but I wasn't able to do so.

Good Listening,
Don Reid

Don,
I just noticed your comments above. I had the DEQX from its first availability and used it for a couple of years in a variety of multi-way prototype systems. However I thought it tended to reduce dynamics somewhat. Have you found that to be the case or not now that some time has passed. For example , it makes the ORIS absolutely flat but seems to take some life out.
Thanks,
Bob Figlio

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Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 02:15 (4701 days ago) @ GC

JBryan,

I forgot to mention it in my previous reply, but I am crossing over from the KHorn bass bins to the Oris 150s at 160 Hz with the high pass rolloff at 78 dB/octave and the low pass at 96 dB/octave. Bert has expressed an opinion that these slopes make audible ringing inevitable, but I haven't heard it. Neither have several others including two audio professionals, one of whom designs and installs megabuck church audio systems and another who is the former recording engineer and owner of a recording studio.

Don Reid

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Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 09:01 (4700 days ago) @ GC

Helo Bryan!

I am using Oris 150 with DX3 and ATS corner horn (smaller than Klipsch - see www.lowrher.de). The crossover is Butterworth with 8mH coil and 150 uF cap. I "copied" Mr. Antonio (se Showroom; Oris150/Klipsch) principle but with higher value for coil (calculated for 8 Ohms = cutoff at 160Hz).
Oh, yes : all the system is driven by AN KIT ONE 300B SE amp!!!!!!!

Best Regards,
Gasper.

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Please help with Klipschorn/Oris combo

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 10:57 (4700 days ago) @ GC

Hi Bryan,

Can anyone suggest a good approach to combine these 2 horns? If I were to
use an AER MD-2 driver or the like, where would the optimum cut-off be
(generally speaking)? How might that change with a Fostex driver?

As a long time lurker you might know that I prefer the passive line filter approach where the signal is tapped from the mid/high horns and filtered with an RC-network. The Fostex driver has more body in the lower mids and therefore the bass filter has to have a higher Q (steeper filter).

Would it be of any benefit to use a 150 horn instead of the 200 and how would that change the cut-off?

The Oris 200 needs more help from the bass system (higher crossover frequency).

Ciao,

Bert

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Thanks for the advise...

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 14:10 (4700 days ago) @ GC

Thanks guys,

- Don, I've seen your setup - impressive workmanship! The few Oris/Khorn setups I've come across don't have the Oris horns attached to the bass bins (of course, I've only seen a couple of examples). Does the Khorn's wider corner placement discourage mounting the 150s on top of them or might the higher mount degrade the image? I would prefer to keep the setup simple (read: easy) and avoid an active crossover/EQ if at all possible. I want to run a single cable from the SET amp(s) and mount something like a 100w Tripath amp under the Oris horn similar to the BD-30 setup.

- Gasper, I couldn't link to the site as posted but I would like to get the specs on your ATS horn. Is there any benefit using the 8mH coil or is this an absolute necessity in your xover design?

- Bert, I'd certainly prefer the AER drivers in a 2-way setup but a Fostex 208/t-90 combo has to be a fall back as both drivers are available to me. It appears that 160Hz is a good place to start when determining the cut-off for the Khorn with the 150 and the 150 is apparently preferred over the 200 but I'm not sure why. The 200 would seem to be the better choice in that it has a wider soundstage which should complement the Khorn's wider placement requirements. Also, since the Khorn can go up to 450Hz or so, what is the benefit of a cutting it off at 160Hz as opposed to 215-230Hz with the 200?

Thanks again, all your advise is very helpful!

Thanks! -Bryan

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Thanks for the advise...

by GC, Friday, March 11, 2005, 19:21 (4700 days ago) @ GC

Hi Bryan,

Khorn's wider placement requirements. Also, since the Khorn can go up to
450Hz or so, what is the benefit of a cutting it off at 160Hz as opposed
to 215-230Hz with the 200?

The advantage of crossing lower is that the timing issue (path length of the Klipsch horn) will be less problematic and the colouration of the higher frequencies coming from the K-horn are more attenuated and therefore less audible...

On the other hand when crossing higher you'll have less tuning problems in the low-mids. When all the bass and mid-bass is coming from the K-horn then you'll have less problems to get the dynamic feeling in the mid-bass range most optimal.

Ciao,

Bert

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Thanks for the advise...

by GC, Saturday, March 12, 2005, 15:18 (4699 days ago) @ GC

Helo Bryan,

Try this one: ;-)
http://www.lowther.de/lowther/subwoofer/ats_atk.asp

I use Beyma 15G350 drivers in ATS. I have calculated (formula is on the old forum somewhere - I do not remember) that for 8 ohm driver you need 8mH coil for cut at 160Hz.
Olso see this:
http://www.solen.ca/6db.htm

I hope this will help. :Y:

Best Regards,
Gasper.

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Thanks for the advise...

by GC, Sunday, March 13, 2005, 03:55 (4699 days ago) @ GC

Dear JBryan,

Thank you very much for your kind and complimentary words about my workmanship.

I planned out my Oris/Klipschorn speaker system for several years before I bought a single component to implement it. Placing the Oris 150 horns right on top of the K-horn cabinets was an option I considered early on. The problem with this was that after nearly forty years of critical listening I knew very well that time misalignment between drivers was a distortion to which I was idiosyncratically sensitive. Even with the Oris 150s mounted on top of the K-horns there was still the folded path of the output from the voice coil/cone juncture of the 15" woofer of the Klipschorn bass bins to the open air to temporally misalign outputs from the K-horn woofer and any midrange-treble divers. However, for at least thirty years I have been extremely impressed with the cleanliness, tightness, articulation and absolutely unmatched verisimiltude of bass musical notes, most especially those from percussive bass instruments as produced by K-horn folded corner horns. For that reason from the very beginning I included and researched digital sound processing computers such as those available from Tact Audio, DEQX, et.al. which would allow very precise time alignment between drivers.

I am absolutely delighted with the results I have achieved combining Oris 150s driven by AER MD3s amd Klipschorn bass bins. I do still have other possible improvements to the system to try. One is the addition of horn super tweeters driven by their own amplifier.

Those of you who are listening to Oris horns driven by AER MD3s might well question whether I really have any need for a horn supertweeter. You ask a very valid question. Before the Oris and Klipsch combination I'm presently enjoying my main speakers were a pair of 3 way Dynaudio d'Appolito towers using the excellent Dynaudio Esotar tweeters. These speakers, which I built and partly designed for myself, are of heroic construction, and Dr. Joseph d'Appolito was kind enough to help me with the design.

The Oris and Klipsch horns stomp the Dynaudio towers into the dirt when it comes to almost all the qualities which lend realism, excitement and emotional involvement with the music. However, there is one exception. There is some very high frequency information such as details of the sound of the rivets in the cymbals on Norah Jones first CD which come across very much, much more clearly and realistically through the Dynaudio tweeters. If I can hear these differences at all then my twenty-four year old daughter and nineteen year old son who, thanks to God, learned to enjoy good sound systems at their daddy's knee must find them obvious.

The DEQX PDC 2.6 is such a dream machine for creating a virtually seamless transition between drivers that I'm hoping to be able to integrate a good horn tweeter with the Oris horns well enough to have the best of both.

Thanks for your response.

Don Reid

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Thanks for the advise...

by GC, Sunday, March 13, 2005, 11:20 (4698 days ago) @ GC

Hi Don,

There is some very high frequency information such as details of the sound
of the rivets in the cymbals on Norah Jones first CD which come across very
much, much more clearly and realistically through the Dynaudio tweeters.

Perhaps you're just hearing the digital equipment? How do the Dynaudio tweeters sound when these are connected to the same equipment?

Another tweak you could try is a notch filter like below using precise and high quality sounding components, any better?

[image]

Ciao,

Bert

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