Cable for BD15s (BD-Design)

by GC, Friday, May 27, 2005, 19:03 (4625 days ago)

I have recently built the compact cabinets for the BD15 drivers and mated them with my Oris200/MD2 horns. Now that I have the speakers completed I am starting to think about cables to connect them to my amplifiers. I have been using Nordost super-flatline speaker cables for my horns. I have read that Bert prefers magnet wire for the horns, is that the case? Also, what is the recommendation for the BD15s? Currently I am using cheap stranded copper wire (approx 16 guage)and I think I need to upgrade to something better. Recommendations for affordable or DIY cables for the oris horns and BD15s would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Friday, May 27, 2005, 22:12 (4624 days ago) @ GC

Steve I have alway had good luck with Kimber 4TC coper speaker cable. The 8TC would work better for the bass application. Great cables at a fair price.

How is the intergration between the Woofer and 200. Am have started working on mine now and am concered about the overall sound. Did you go with the compact BD15? Could they benefit from more bracing?

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 06:37 (4624 days ago) @ GC

Steve I have alway had good luck with Kimber 4TC coper speaker cable. The
8TC would work better for the bass application. Great cables at a fair
price.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will look for some Kimber cable.

How is the intergration between the Woofer and 200. Am have started
working on mine now and am concered about the overall sound. Did you go
with the compact BD15? Could they benefit from more bracing?

I have managed to get very good integration using Bert's passive filter for the bass cabinets. It took some playing around, but now they really mesh together well. I did build the compact, mostly for cosmetic purposes. I don't think the cabinets need more bracing. They are already very thick and heavy, I don't detect any unwanted resonances by ear.

Steve

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 03:49 (4624 days ago) @ GC

Currently I am using
cheap stranded copper wire (approx 16 guage)and I think I need to upgrade
to something better.

Something different you mean.

Why?

Because other people pay more for copper, you should too?

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 06:34 (4624 days ago) @ GC


Why?

I always understood that high current amplifiers, like the one I use for the BD15s, need thicker wire. I am not a physicist, but a biologist, so I may be wrong. Its seems that a lot of small strands might not do the job as well as a one or two thicker wires, what do you think? In addition, the cheap wire is not terminated and tends to corrode after a few months. Maybe spade terminations would give a better connection?

Steve

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 09:13 (4624 days ago) @ GC

I always understood that high current amplifiers, like the one I use for
the BD15s, need thicker wire.

You can get enough current through a line-level wire to kill a man. What makes you think you need to go thicker than the voice-coil wire.

I am not a physicist, but a biologist, so I
may be wrong. Its seems that a lot of small strands might not do the job
as well as a one or two thicker wires, what do you think?

Doesn't seem so to me, if you think that kind of reasoning counts.

In addition,
the cheap wire is not terminated and tends to corrode after a few months.
Maybe spade terminations would give a better connection?

When it's run through any kind of terminal, and clammed, it doesn't tend to corrode, because it is more or less sealed off.

The fact is that metal is a great conductor. I see people using just a couple of strands of CAT5 (47Labs-style), and saying how _that_ is better than other configs..

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 20:38 (4623 days ago) @ GC

Hi Niels,

You can get enough current through a line-level wire to kill a man. What
makes you think you need to go thicker than the voice-coil wire.

Well, I know that voice coils get hot after long use because they have resistance and inductance. I can't imagine that adding more resistance by using cable as thin as the voice coil would help the amplifier work to its maximum ability. I would think you would want something thicker so you don't add to the impedence of the voice coil. Am I missing something?

Regards,

Steve

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 21:53 (4623 days ago) @ GC

Hi Niels,

You can get enough current through a line-level wire to kill a man.

What

makes you think you need to go thicker than the voice-coil wire.


Well, I know that voice coils get hot after long use because they have
resistance and inductance. I can't imagine that adding more resistance by
using cable as thin as the voice coil would help the amplifier work to its
maximum ability. I would think you would want something thicker so you
don't add to the impedence of the voice coil. Am I missing something?

If you're concerned about resistance, you've certainly calculated the different values of different kinds of diametres (at a given length) right?

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 22:16 (4623 days ago) @ GC

Hi Niels,


If you're concerned about resistance, you've certainly calculated the
different values of different kinds of diametres (at a given length)
right?

No, I haven't. I just know that thicker wire generally has less resistance.
Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Steve

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Monday, May 30, 2005, 13:29 (4622 days ago) @ GC

Hi Niels,

Because other people pay more for copper, you should too?

Different cable (material, thickness, isolation, construction, etc.) does make a difference. The more transparent the system the better you'll hear it unless you're not open minded enough or don't care much about it...

No offense though, people should do what they think is best for them. I respect peoples opinion without trying to force anybody to think or feel the same as I do.

A good example is that some people who visited my demo at the show last weekend only needed a quick listen (seconds!) through the door to be able to form their opinion...

I guess its called prejudice, I can only feel sorry for those guys who are not "willing" to learn and keep running in circles until they do...

Ciao,

Bert

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Tuesday, May 31, 2005, 04:03 (4621 days ago) @ GC

Because other people pay more for copper, you should too?


Different cable (material, thickness, isolation, construction, etc.) does
make a difference.

I tried to get Steve's thoughts in a more technical and sceptical ('scientific' actually) mindset.

I didn't actually say that cables didn't make a difference.

For instance, I've just measured the resistance of ~12 m of ~1 mm diameter standard copper wire. The added resistance is ~0.5 ohm, so there *is* something there, but it's not a lot.

In my experience and technical opinion, variations you make between 0 and 15 m, 0,75 mm and 5 mm, copper and silver (5% more conductive), strings and solid, can't be heard, unless your amplifier is really at it's threshold and can't handle the little extra resistance.

The more transparent the system the better you'll hear
it unless you're not open minded enough or don't care much about it...

That's not very nice. You can say that in your opinion it does make an audible difference, but stating that is does and argumenting open-mindedness is not very .. open-minded. We all know what the subconcious is capable of (in this business).

No offense though, people should do what they think is best for them. I
respect peoples opinion without trying to force anybody to think or feel
the same as I do.

A good example is that some people who visited my demo at the show last
weekend only needed a quick listen (seconds!) through the door to be able
to form their opinion...

Example of what?

I guess its called prejudice, I can only feel sorry for those guys who are
not "willing" to learn and keep running in circles until they do...

Ah, you compare the doorway-guys with people not open-minded enough to hear differences between cables. Well, I think they are different things. For starters, the differences between systems are huge, can be argued about and more effectively can be demonstrated quite effectively. Now compare that to:
"Again solid wires... I did use silver for the bass which gives it a bit more dynamical feeling but copper will do well."

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Tuesday, May 31, 2005, 10:36 (4621 days ago) @ GC

Hi Niels,

I tried to get Steve's thoughts in a more technical and sceptical
('scientific' actually) mindset.

I didn't actually say that cables didn't make a difference.

No problem with that, it was not clear to me that this was your intention. To me it "sounded" like it does not make a difference.

In my experience and technical opinion, variations you make between 0 and
15 m, 0,75 mm and 5 mm, copper and silver (5% more conductive), strings
and solid, can't be heard, unless your amplifier is really at it's
threshold and can't handle the little extra resistance.

There is more going on than just resistance, I can't explain what or why but I know that the differences are present from almost nothing to very audible.

That's not very nice. You can say that in your opinion it does make an
audible difference, but stating that is does and argumenting
open-mindedness is not very .. open-minded. We all know what the
subconcious is capable of (in this business).

Yes, the mind plays tricks but nevertheless, things I can't explain make a big difference in sound. I am open minded enough to believe this as I have heard changes clearly without being able to understand why. I am more sceptical than you might think but despite that I do play with parts without trying to explain. That is more open minded than just ignore or disagree before it is technical proved...

Ah, you compare the doorway-guys with people not open-minded enough to
hear differences between cables. Well, I think they are different things.

Not just cables, in general. You see things thinking that there is nothing that is interesting to learn. Why do people go to such demonstrations, only to meet friends or to find things they can use to improve/change their own system?

"Again solid wires... I did use silver for the bass which gives it a bit
more dynamical feeling but copper will do well."

Silver did that in my system and I liked that but that does not mean that I am using Silver for the bass at home or that everybody else should use that. I am not (anymore) infected by the "hype" trying to improve everything all the time. Everything you change in the system does makes a difference (better or worse) but for me it is not the most important thing, I prefer to listen to music. Solid Copper for the bass will do well enough to enjoy listening to music but if people want to optimise than Silver and solid wire could sound better within their system...

BTW, I did learn something more about cables at the show. Being very sceptical did not stop me to try different USB cables for connecting the Laptop to the TwinDAC+. Normally I use a cable as short as possible (sounded best in my system at home) but the whole weekend I used a new type 4m long USB cable from Monster. It clearly made a difference improving the whole sound being much cleaner (less jitter with a longer cable?) giving a lot more 3D and detail.

If I would have been sceptical about cables like you seem to be than I would never found this out and waved the cable away thinking that this can't improve anything!

Ciao,

Bert

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Cable for BD15s

by GC, Monday, May 30, 2005, 13:11 (4622 days ago) @ GC

Hi Steve,

I have read that Bert prefers magnet wire for the horns, is that the case?

I never tried magnet wire so I can't have advised that... :)

I do prefer thin wire though (solid wire)...

Also, what is the recommendation for the BD15s? Currently I am using
cheap stranded copper wire (approx 16 guage)and I think I need to upgrade
to something better. Recommendations for affordable or DIY cables for the
oris horns and BD15s would be greatly appreciated.

Again solid wires... I did used silver for the bass which gives it a bit more dynamical feeling but copper will do well.

Ciao,

Bert

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