Orphean sweet spot. (Orphean)

by Kim Schultz @, Thursday, August 10, 2006, 08:33 (4177 days ago)

Hi Bert.

I´m thinking of getting the Orphean for my primary speakers with a bassreflex jbl2225 woofer as bass section.

But they would have to double as front speakers in a HT arrangement.

The speakers I first planned to use is the Pi7 which have a very wide sweetspot.
Do the Orphean work well off axis, ea. when a couple of people are watching a movie from the same couch.

Regards
Kim

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Bert @, Thursday, August 10, 2006, 20:03 (4177 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

Hi Kim,

I´m thinking of getting the Orphean for my primary speakers with a bassreflex jbl2225 woofer as bass section.

The Orphean will be a good choice... :smile:

But they would have to double as front speakers in a HT arrangement.

Same situation as within my system.

Do the Orphean work well off axis, ea. when a couple of people are watching a movie from the same couch.

In my room (4.2m wide) and the present placement of the system the "sweetspot" is equal, the sound balance from low to the very high (<20kHz) is equal, no matter where I listen.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Orphean sweet spot.

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, August 11, 2006, 03:06 (4176 days ago) @ Bert
edited by unknown, Friday, August 11, 2006, 03:16

Hi Kim,
In my room (4.2m wide) and the present placement of the system the
"sweetspot" is equal, the sound balance from low to the very high (<20kHz)
is equal, no matter where I listen.

Hi Bert,

This would imply an horizontal angle of, say, over 45 degrees. I thought it was less than 10 degrees for horn systems in general ?

I stand corrected if I'm wrong, but that's what I got from your explanations earlier. Remember, the very main difference between a beautifully focused system like in your listening room, and a "just not focused at all system" like mine ? :cool:

Regards,
Peter

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Bert @, Friday, August 11, 2006, 10:15 (4176 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

This would imply an horizontal angle of, say, over 45 degrees. I thought it was less than 10 degrees for horn systems in general ?

I listen at 4m distance, from there and further back all is the same. I have them pointed about 10 degrees out and that provides me the wide angle. Remember that there are 2 speakers playing (stereo).

I stand corrected if I'm wrong, but that's what I got from your explanations earlier. Remember, the very main difference between a beautifully focused system like in your listening room, and a "just not focused at all system" like mine ? :cool:

When listening in stereo then the virtual image will move from one speaker to the other more or less depending on which speaker is closer to you. There is no stereo speaker that keeps the image at the exact same position unless you only listen to reflections without any direct sound.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Orphean sweet spot.

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, August 11, 2006, 13:14 (4176 days ago) @ Bert

I listen at 4m distance, from there and further back all is the same. I
have them pointed about 10 degrees out and that provides me the wide
angle. Remember that there are 2 speakers playing (stereo).

... which is different from the original question, being about HT ...
Also, you are now talking about moving back and forth, which obviously will do for a few meters with a 10 degree "sweat spot angle" (not to be confused with your just mentioned 10 degrees pointing out of the speakers :smile: ).

When listening in stereo then the virtual image will move from one speaker
to the other more or less depending on which speaker is closer to you.
There is no stereo speaker that keeps the image at the exact same position
unless you only listen to reflections without any direct sound.

I don't think that's desired, nor was it the question. :wink:
My point was about the very small sweat spot angle your speakers require, and which IMHO does not satisfy to be with 4 people next to eachother (and not behind eachother :grin: ) on a couch. Certainly not without a center speaker !
Again, this is a main difference with a system like mine, which easily allows to be 2 meters aside with speakers 4 meters from eachother (so that would be just opposite to one of them).

In order to clarify your own explanation to me earlier ... your setup i.e. speakers are so much phase calibrated, that as soon as you get out of the sweat spot angle, the beautiful accurately focusing is lost. At all.
This is opposed to a setup like mine, which doesn't have the accurate focusing in the first place, but which OTOH doesn't need to be on the sweat spot at all to contain a proper image. Remember, a preferred choice by me.

Oh well ... :cool:

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Bert @, Friday, August 11, 2006, 15:00 (4176 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

My point was about the very small sweat spot angle your speakers require, and which IMHO does not satisfy to be with 4 people next to eachother (and not behind eachother :grin: ) on a couch. Certainly not without a center speaker !

You never heard the Orphean, your assumptions are related to my previous speakers... :grin:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Kim Schultz @, Saturday, August 12, 2006, 11:23 (4175 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Peter, your system sounds like it is quiet different to Bert´s, would you share some more details and perhaps a picture ?

Regards
Kim

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Orphean sweet spot.

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Saturday, August 12, 2006, 14:59 (4175 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

Peter, your system sounds like it is quiet different to Bert´s, would you
share some more details and perhaps a picture ?

Regards
Kim


Hi Kim,

First of all, please count me out as a real partitioner in the "horn" debate. I don't have horns ... :blush:

Anyway, I find the horns at Bert's place possibly the most focusing speakers ever, well ... his "old" ones ... :grin:
My point would be that I somehow can't stand a very well pinpointing bass, that is, it coming from a square decimeter somewhere in front of you. Besides that, for me it's not very practical to sit and listen at some sweatspot ... it's just not my thing.

I have it kind of the opposite, created by Infinity Renaissance 90's, allowing to be about anywhere in the room while the instruments etc. keep coming from where they should. I.e. they don't change places while you move yourself (in a room of 12x8x3m).

While the Infinity's contribute to this effect largely, most of it is created by other parameters, say all the tweaks and things we all working on throuhgout the day.:cool:
To my findings the more important "tweaks" are the (NOS-)TwinDAC, playing the whole system from batteries and last but sure not least : playing properly from the PC. For that matter I'm kind of proud to say that very recently I created the beginnings of my own player, allowing for a latency of 48 samples therewith eliminating jitter largely and implying a huge step opposed to (e.g.) Foobar, IMO.

Possibly relevant to you, might be that my setup is so that I can use my best -and dedicated- setup for stereo as well as (HT) multichannel (4.2), without changing a cable, and without using an -ever not the best- multichannel receiver. Here too the PC does the job, together with an RME Fireface, which is used for routing only (to the DACs->amps).

Kind regards,
Peter


PS: I don't think that anyone liking the horns, would like what I have ...
But you can be on the couch with ten.:smile:

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Bert @, Tuesday, August 15, 2006, 16:59 (4172 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

To my findings the more important "tweaks" are the (NOS-)TwinDAC, playing
the whole system from batteries and last but sure not least : playing
properly from the PC. For that matter I'm kind of proud to say that very
recently I created the beginnings of my own player, allowing for a latency
of 48 samples therewith eliminating jitter largely and implying a huge step
opposed to (e.g.) Foobar, IMO.

Is that player suitable for my system too? If so, where can I download it from and try here? :smile:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Player

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Tuesday, August 15, 2006, 23:41 (4171 days ago) @ Bert
edited by unknown, Tuesday, August 15, 2006, 23:46

Hey Bert,

Is that player suitable for my system too? If so, where can I download it
from and try here? :smile:

It should be in the end ...
The current Aplha version 0.0004 :grin: won't be playing back bit perfect for your system. So it won't be optimal. For now that would be needing MME drivers like my RME or any other soundcard avoiding the Kernel Mixer.

Do you have a hardware DTS decoder ? if yes, and it allows playing DTS WAV's you'd be avoiding KMixer ... (don't let Foobar (etc.) do the decoding !)

Anyway, in due time I'll have something. Right tonight the player is tested by our "jitter ears boy", C.R. (from "interesting thread at Addio Asylum").

For now ... it's time to come over I guess ...
(PM coming up)
:smile:

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Orphean sweet spot.

by Kim Schultz @, Thursday, August 17, 2006, 21:15 (4170 days ago) @ PeterSt.

This is pretty funny.

My first eye opening experience with highend audio was with the Infinity Renaissance 90's powered by Denon amps.

A friend had told me I should take a listen to the speakers, and in a break from from school, we went to to store.

We only had 30min to spare, but I was very impressed.
The next day we skipped a couple of classes, and went there again with a handfull of cd´s each, and just sat there listening for 2 hours straight.

I seem to remember the treble being a bit hot, and could cause a headache, but othervise they sound very nice.

I´m sure with some tweaks, they can sound very very good.

Regards
Kim

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Treble Trouble

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, August 18, 2006, 08:53 (4169 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

This is pretty funny.
[...]
We only had 30min to spare, but I was very impressed.
The next day we skipped a couple of classes, and went there again with a
handfull of cd´s each, and just sat there listening for 2 hours straight.

This is very funny too ... :
This first time I experienced them, I came in the shop near closing time. Had to wait because the salesman was busy. Only after closing time I got helped, after first being served a beer (that's always a good start :grin: ).
I left the shop at 5am next morning. Really !
Lateron I drank many beers at many occasions in many places with that salesman. I never see him anymore now, but the Infinity's are still there (must be over 15 years by now).

I seem to remember the treble being a bit hot, and could cause a headache,
but othervise they sound very nice.

I´m sure with some tweaks, they can sound very very good.

A bit hot ? you must be crazy ... they are hot like hell. Besides that, it took me over a year (!) to find amps properly controlling the (87dB or so) beasts.
Anyway, the treble is just espressing "factors" more than, say, general speakers (or tweeters for that matter) do. I learned to appreciate that, and tweak away to get all fed by more decent sound.
Right now, all that comes from the (band) tweeters is super smooth silky sound, expressing all (?) that's there.

Peter

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Orphean placement-

by Kim Schultz @, Friday, August 11, 2006, 07:26 (4176 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert.

My HT room is 4.4m x 5.8m and I would like to place the speakers in the corners on the short wall, is this possible ?

Btw. what speakers are you using for center and rear channels ?

Regards
Kim

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Orphean placement-

by Bert @, Friday, August 11, 2006, 10:21 (4176 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

Hi Kim,

My HT room is 4.4m x 5.8m and I would like to place the speakers in the corners on the short wall, is this possible ?

Yes, but do add some damping to the side walls to reduce the early reflections which will otherwise disturb more than you'll gain.

Btw. what speakers are you using for center and rear channels ?

No center speaker and for the rear "simple" and small hi-fi speakers. I have experimented with the effects added from the rear channels and high-end quality is definitely not needed! A waste of money if you would spend too much on that.

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Orphean placement-

by PeterSt. ⌂ @, Netherlands, Friday, August 11, 2006, 13:29 (4176 days ago) @ Bert

No center speaker and for the rear "simple" and small hi-fi speakers. I
have experimented with the effects added from the rear channels and
high-end quality is definitely not needed! A waste of money if you would
spend too much on that.

Hi Bert,

May I ask ... how did you test the quality ? did you use two TwinDACs, including two highend amps ?
:grin:

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Orphean placement-

by Bert @, Friday, August 11, 2006, 14:57 (4176 days ago) @ PeterSt.

Hi Peter,

May I ask ... how did you test the quality ? did you use two TwinDACs, including two highend amps ?

I listened to what the rear channels actually add by turning off all other channels. This is hardly nothing, usually 10-20dB lower in level and when on level then its rain or bullets you'll hear flying around.

The rear channels do add space to the virtual experience but if that has to have the same quality as the main channels is something I can't back up.

All above for movies though....

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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not only movies...

by Kim Schultz @, Saturday, August 12, 2006, 11:21 (4175 days ago) @ Bert

All above for movies though....

This setup will be for multichannel music too, so I will need good quality in the rear channels as well.

I will also use a center channel as I think it improves the illusion when watching movies.

Bert, you say that you have them setup pointing about 10 degrees out, this indicates a much bigger sweetspot than my 200hz fibreglass fronthorns with PM2A drivers. They would have to be pointed directly towards the listener.

I really don´t like the idea of pointing them out as I have a door opening in the right side, and had hoped that I could eliminate the need for damping on the walls, by placing them in the corners and pointing 45 degrees in, like the pi7´s .

Do you have a picture of your setup ?

Regards
Kim

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not only movies...

by Bert @, Saturday, August 12, 2006, 14:31 (4175 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

Hi Kim,

This setup will be for multichannel music too, so I will need good quality in the rear channels as well.

Okay, but first try it with decent rear channels. Most "musical" recordings are rather aNoying to view and listen. Mostly the sound comes from all around you, not corresponding with what you actually see.

Its weird to see the image zoom in and out, going from left to right and the sound does not change. On the other hand its weird to hear the guitar at the left rear channel when its playing rigth in front of you!

Best recording for me would be a stable image to look at, all music coming from the front (when you're there live then the sound comes from the front too...) and the only positive effect would be hearing the crowd and the real size of the recorded environment with the help of the rear channels.

No real quaity needed for that...

I will also use a center channel as I think it improves the illusion when watching movies.

When you're not alone then it would be better to have a center channel. This channel should be excacly the same as the main channels though. A different character will sound rather disturbing when the sound image is moving from the center to one of the sides.

I really don´t like the idea of pointing them out as I have a door opening in the right side, and had hoped that I could eliminate the need for damping on the walls, by placing them in the corners and pointing 45 degrees in, like the pi7´s .

Then point them inwards, this way you have less side reflections and the image will me more in front of you. I prefer them outwards simply because I like to be "inside" the music, front row!

Do you have a picture of your setup ?

No, but I will shoot one as soon as I have cleaned up the mess around here... :smile:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Picture music setup...

by Bert @, Tuesday, August 15, 2006, 16:57 (4172 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

....a screen comes down for movies.

This is close to what I see sitting at my listening position. The picture is a bit distorted due to the used lens but if gives a rough idea.

[image]

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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very nice, but a bit small :-)

by Kim Schultz @, Thursday, August 17, 2006, 21:05 (4170 days ago) @ Bert

Thank you for the picture.

Your room seems a bit small though.
Do you still use the subhorn in the floor ?

I think the Orphean horns might work in my room, if they don´t beam to much it should work, placed in the corners and toed in a bit.

What are the dimensions of the horn, they might be a bit much when used in the middle of the room as a center speaker.

Regards
Kim

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very nice, but a bit small :-)

by Bert @, Thursday, August 17, 2006, 21:50 (4170 days ago) @ Kim Schultz

Hi Kim,

Your room seems a bit small though.

Its more than 4m wide, I guess the heigth of 3m makes it look small... :)

Do you still use the subhorn in the floor ?

Other bass horns, the old ones in the floor where made from wood and not used anymore. The newer ones (with a total horn mouth of 4.2m width and 68cm heigth and 5,35m long) are made from concrete and bricks. I use these only for movies as subwoofer. They are firing towards my back and do a very decent job... :cool:

What are the dimensions of the horn, they might be a bit much when used in
the middle of the room as a center speaker.

The total depth of the Orphean is a bit over 60cm (including driver), the horn mouth itself is 54cm in diameter...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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