BD-30 as fullrange alternative

OK
Here we go!
If one is looking for an alternative to drive high-eff. hornsystems with something else than tube based amps,why not use BD 30 (or another analogue based chip amp)?
Maybe even less watt?
What´s so special about T or D amps?
Best
Leif

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Hi Leif,

I hope to be ahead of Bert with an answer, so it will be more difficult for him. And Bert, this is no teasing, and for me merely about this loner not using the BD30, "just because I did not want to". We didn't even talk about the subject, let alone that I know why. So here goes :

My first question could be : what kind of class D it is inside the BD30.
Actually, I don't need an answer at this place, but I wonder anyhow, because this too was never a subject (between me and Bert), while it *is* a subject obviously to look for a class D amp ...

For Leif : indeed, like Bert said, this is for the replacement of his LaydyDay, and not for *his* BD30 (ok, afaik). For me it is about replacing two SS stereo blocks, where I just didn't want the BD30. Again, without reasons, and now I just don't have the BD30's.

Now, the reason why I personally would think why this thread could be interesting, is that *I* do not understand (at all) how it is possible that the quality of the sound (also from the bass !) is determined by the "main amp", i.e. the amp providing the mid/high with juice. But, at the same time it feeds the bass amp, and in that case the mid/high amp is acting as a pre-amp. That is what I understood anyway.
Nevertheless, I can't get it out of my head that the bass amp will produce its own character into the BD15 speakers, so that's probably why I don't want it. For me it is "a" amp, and chances that that one is the best are zero. Mind you, if indeed the sound it produces matter.

Of course for Bert this implies money, and maybe that is why the subject has remained unspoken (I don't interfere whith anyone's ways of income).

Leif turned it, very reasonable, the other way around;
"If the BD30 is so good, what are you guys troubling yourself with".
The answer to that is (from logic) clear anyway : it is not.

So the question which remains is : how much does / will it matter in the (filter) setup as provided by Bert.
Oh, commercial answers won't do !
:blrrr:
Peter

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BUT if you forget logic and listen to it; is it still not good enough?
To me,like Bert: if it sounds right,it probably is.
I do not intend to spend my time as a "scope-jockey" :grin:
Best
Leif

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Hi Leif,

I will ignore Peter's message this time, he never was open to try the BD30's because he does not understand the used principle and for that matter, he never heard them as they are from nature.

If one is looking for an alternative to drive high-eff. hornsystems with
something else than tube based amps, why not use BD 30 (or another analogue
based chip amp)?

The main reason why this amp is not used as main amplifier is because it was designed for optimal bass performance. I have tried it a long time ago as main amplifier and didn't liked it better in those days, they were too clean and cold sounding (too honest?) compared to the tube amps I had in those days.

Things have changed a lot since then though, perhaps they can do a good job now with the better front end and better speakers?

Perhaps I should prepare a pair for a test and compare it to the other amps to check out soon.

What´s so special about T or D amps?

These amp's are very efficient and extremely fast. That is about it so far... future listening test will show if these can be musical too...

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Bert...
who needs efficient amps if they don´t sound good?......who needs eff.amps at all(in this forum)?
Best
Leif

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Hi Leif,

You're changing the subject again... :wink:

who needs efficient amps if they don´t sound good?......who needs eff.amps
at all(in this forum)?

If they sound better (still the question to be answered) then why not?

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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sry :blush: easy to drift into "new" topic?

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I will ignore Peter's message this time, he never was open to try the
BD30's because he does not understand the used principle and for that
matter, he never heard them as they are from nature.

Another easy non-answer Bert.
You just ignore my valid questions, which leaves me with thinking the above just *is* your commercial answer.

I can't help it that I ask myself things others do not.

he never was open to try the BD30's

You start to talk rubbish as well, unless you want to say something different. What do you mean "try" ? did I close my ears al the time listening to hem, or what *do* you mean ?
Do I need to listen to them through a virtual amp ? namely the one we are looking after at this moment ? Are you possibly suggesting that I had to move one of my amps out of the way in order to replace it with the BD30 with the suggestion that should be better ?!! COME ON. You did not.
As I said : it was never a subject.

because he does not understand the used principle

So I am not allowed to read litterally, right ?

I just asked for that, suggested something ... did not get an answer.
You bet if I don't understand the principle, you didn't explain very well.
But I now your ever answer my Bert : the mid/high amp acts as a pre-amp.
So much for principles ... so all is clear now. NOT.

[...] it was designed for optimal bass performance

Is that the reason why I shouldn't question it ?
Is it therewith the best there is ?

You are avoiding the subject.
Peter

Edit : thanks anyway for your just posted link : http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=12816 which I'm afraid is unrelated to the subject here. That is, I must derive from your "because he doesn't understand the principle" that this is the explanation needed.
Stangely enough, for principles I understood this long ago (already because it's "logic").
It does NOT tell by any word why the sound (quality) of the "main amp" determines that of the bass amp (hence -speaker) (and I understand the principle of a pre-amp (to a certian extend) determining the sound of a main amp.

If you can't answer this question, or say that was a mistake (you said it well over 10 times responding to my questions about it), I hereby officially declare this as non-sense.
Or a commercial for the BD30, if you like. You may choose.

With love,
Peter
:friends:

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Peter,

You should drink less coffee (just assuming that this is causing hyper reactions and "fuzyy" questioning).

Did you read any of the usefull answers I did give (you are not responding to that either) or are you only focussing on answers for questions I have to read in between the lines all the time?

I guess we do not communicate very well. What does work for me is to get clear questions from which you want the answer and ( my brain isn't so fast) one at the time, then I can answer properly.

You blaim people for mixing topics but it would help if you would be more clear with your messages. Sometimes I am getting pretty dizzy when reading them without understanding what you are talking about? Perhaps it is my guessing that is trickering the wrong answers (or none at all)?

You start to talk rubbish as well, unless you want to say something
different. What do you mean "try" ? did I close my ears al the time
listening to hem, or what *do* you mean ?

From the first moments you expressed to me that you do not want to use the BD30 for the bass without second thoughts (at that moment). I respect that and from that moment I hardly mentioned the amp to you so why trying to push you towards the BD30 after? And yes, you have listened to the amps through the Swing's and we never discussed it any further. If I am as commercial as you say so then I would have pushed you towards the BD30.

Peter, in many things you have your own agenda and preferences. Most based on technical information. I tried to express myself for several occasions that it is NOT all about specifications and you are not truely open for that yet. You still want to prove things and in my experience this is useless... same situation why you do not see anything usefull in Eddie's PC-Audio "manual" (don't start to argue with this here, new topic!)

But I now your ever answer my Bert : the mid/high amp acts as a pre-amp.
So much for principles ... so all is clear now. NOT.

What is it that you do not understand? See a pre-amp as a normal amplifier or see a normal amp as a pre-amplifier. It is the same principle used with both.

Both amplify the signal in the same way. 100mV and 1V out for a pre (as an example) and 1V in and 10V out for a main amplifier!

The only difference between a pre-amplifier and a normal amplifier is that the pre-amplifier is not desinged to drive a loudspeaker (high current) but mereley a simple resistive load.

How much do you understand about electronics? You will need some basic knowledge about that to understand the principle used for the passive line filter and the use of the main amp as pre-amplifier... if not then you'll never understand.

[...] it was designed for optimal bass performance

Is that the reason why I shouldn't question it ?
Is it therewith the best there is ?

There is no reason to not questioning anything but perhaps it would help me if I would understand the reason why you are asking too?

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Hi Peter,

[...] it was designed for optimal bass performance

Is it therewith the best there is ?

Yes, it is the best amp I have heard in the used configuration. If it is also the best amp in the world is less important, it does do it for me (personally, not commercially!).

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Hi,

I guess Bert said in the past that the BD30 is a chip amp (not class D). Chances are it is based of an LM3886 or something similar. I do not care about the exact chip type.

You can conclude from the amount of capacitance that you can see from the pictures Bert made available that the BD30 is indeed optimized for bass performance. People using chip amps often claim that they sound better with little power supply capacitance (~ 1000uF) per rail. The cost of that is somewhat weaker bass. Bert has gone for lots of capacitance. Spot on for bass.

From what I know about chip amps and what I see from Bert's pictures the BD30 is indeed a good bass amp (and would be quite a decent amp overall but Bert is used to much better amps on the Oris).

It has been argued at length that if you want your bass to have a similar sonic signature as your main speakers it is best to drive it from an identical amp. Driving the bass amp from the main amp goes a long way in that direction and is a must if your main is not powerful enough.

I caNot see what the fuss is about. But some people seem to have a tendency to pick up a fight with anybody...

Best
Giulio

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Ok Bert, reset ... :evil:
Please note this is not about working out who said what and what was wrong about it, but it's merely an attempt to make you understand a bit how I think and decide ...

First of all, I told in the other thread the discussion would be interesting (or similar). Wonder o wonder, it happens again (same with the first NF thread of GC). This by itself should "speak".

Now, skipping most parts, I can tell you that nor I nor you wanted to push anything (in whatever past, the BD30 being a subject). To me this is about respect. Right. From both sides btw.

Now here is this question from Leif, being exactly my question, although he puts it the other way around : why not have the BD30 for main amp, if you are looking for a class D anyway.
I twisted that back to my question : why would the BD30 be the best of amps for bass, if at the same time it never was a discussion. Do note that this latter tells me enough : it isn't good enough FOR ME.
Remember (like I sure did this afternoon) that you asked me "shouldn't you try it", which is a silly question at the moment I buy a BD15 and I have amps which are not questioned by me, BUT I want better if possible, and less using KWh for sure (so yes, that is a subject, for those who imply it will not be -> somewhere in this thread I think).
In the end what's silly about the question is that I don't want to spend 2 x GCx bucks for something I don't NEED.

Now you respect my meaning on that, and I respect your selling of the BD15.
I never said (nor thought !) it was wrong or sounded such that it could be better, and you never told me my bass amp ... the same.
And therewith the whole thing is not a subject.

But it is. It is for those who have the option of making the best of it, assuming there are better things than a BD30. That is, I wouldn't know why not, and you didn't talk about it (until your last post), nor did I ask.
What I do know, however, is that there's no reason not to sell the BD30 together with the BD15, just like a subwoofer comes with its active amp.

Please try to imagine those in-brain processes, and nothing is wrong with nothing ...
Until ... until I -via Leif- ask you the question on paper for the first time, KNOWING that it must be a rubbish statement from your mouth that the sound from the bass is determined by the main amp. No matter what you say, to me this is just rubbish, apart from the pre-amp principle, which makes it right for say, 20%.
Now again understand the in-brain process : I now very explicitly ask for the truth (so, end-of-respect-period), and the only thing you come up with (at first), is that you skip the question because I don't understand.
Again the in-brain process then tells me the BD30 is a hoax.

Please Bert, I just explained in the above how a nerd like me operates with the data he receives. I do not -AT ALL- want to call the BD30 a hoax. But you leave nothing else by your (not) answers. Go through it again if you like, but don't forget the context of the past and my questions accordingly.

As long as I now know that the bass amp matters as much as the main amp, I'm okay. If you'd admit that now, at last I got the answer, and again, I asked for 10 times at least. The only thing I don't understood is how what you said could be true. Well, it isn't.
For that matter, you should not answer my normal question with a "you don't understand". You could say that you caused that yourself the least.

Another thing :
If you by now seriously think that the BD30 could be an option in today's setup and all, I will be very happy to buy FOUR instead of zero.
The only strange thing again is, that it needs a fight like in this thread to make you think like this ? My brain told me that sure the BD30 couldn't be good enough, otherwise you would have connected a pair more to your own system, instead of risking the explosions of NF amps, my time spent on further stuff and all. But you did not.
Maybe I'm too simple : if you do not propose that or even start talking about it, the BD30 is less in any case. I know, by now you explained it as being too cold for being a main amp. But you know me, there's no way an amp - too cold for mid/high- can suffice for bass. Only when it's less, and for bass it's so called less important, this can be a reason FOR YOU. If I would have thought like that, I would have had 2 BD30's by now.
[small print]... about now[/smallprint]

Peace Bert. If you can agree with the (hmm ... mine :attention: (smiley coming up !) real subject (the bass amp matters), let's close this discussion.
Peter

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Hi Peter,

What I do know, however, is that there's no reason not to sell the BD30
together with the BD15, just like a subwoofer comes with its active amp.

Even if this isn't a question I will try to explain.

With all completed finished systems and all completed DIY packages offered the BD30 is always part of the package because then all should work optimally when connected or built together. Not only to complete the package but also because everything is tuned together and I know all about the parts used for future assistance. BTW. did you ever wondered why I am using the BD30's myself within my system?

Another thing is custom made, such systems are open for suggestions to which I do listen and respect the customers idea's. If they ask what would be the best then I will tell them, if they have their mind made up already (listening in between the lines) then I respect that to and will try to get the best out of that situation (soundwise).

And the last but not least thing is the "true" DIY-er who usually knows things better. They will always know better so why bother discussing the matter and wasting time when it won't change their mind in the end?

And for some the price is too high, not for the quality they will get but simply because there are cheaper things around which migth do just as well in their minds. I have used many different amps for the bass and among those, the BD30 is still the most accurate one.

Until ... until I -via Leif- ask you the question on paper for the first
time, KNOWING that it must be a rubbish statement from your mouth that the
sound from the bass is determined by the main amp. No matter what you say,
to me this is just rubbish, apart from the pre-amp principle, which makes
it right for say, 20%.

The BD30 is clean, clear, fast and very accurate. It will only show you what you feed them and if the main amplifier is driving them (like a colourfull tube amp with no control in the bass at all - which do exist) then the bass will sound just like that. If the main amp is crisp, quick, clean and fast so will be the bass driven by the BD30's.

Compare Foobar and GC, how's the bass different between these? Does it sound the same regardless the player you are using? No, so the BD30 is only giving what it is told. I am sure that the differences will be much less clear with inferior amps driving the bass drivers.

As long as I now know that the bass amp matters as much as the main amp,
I'm okay. If you'd admit that now, at last I got the answer, and again, I
asked for 10 times at least. The only thing I don't understood is how what
you said could be true. Well, it isn't.

Yes, the bass amp matters a lot. It should not play its own tune or reduce the quality you feed them... but the main amp matters just as much as explained before in this reply, everything matters!

The only strange thing again is, that it needs a fight like in this thread
to make you think like this ? My brain told me that sure the BD30 couldn't
be good enough, otherwise you would have connected a pair more to your own
system, instead of risking the explosions of NF amps, my time spent on
further stuff and all. But you did not.

True, I did not do that (again, as explained in my reply to Leif), never thought about that at all! Sometimes things to try are so obvious that it is overlooked...

Maybe I'm too simple : if you do not propose that or even start talking
about it, the BD30 is less in any case. I know, by now you explained it as
being too cold for being a main amp. But you know me, there's no way an amp
- too cold for mid/high- can suffice for bass. Only when it's less, and for
bass it's so called less important, this can be a reason FOR YOU. If I
would have thought like that, I would have had 2 BD30's by now.
[small print]... about now[/smallprint]

Having a new front end, having new speakers, having changed the lot since 4 years back when I started with the BD30's it is time to test them again, and compare them with the LadyDay's, the NF's, the D's...

I am using the BD30's as something standard all the time but seem to forget that it is more than just an amp... (taking them for granted as it seems).

Hah, more things to explore! :cool:

Ciao,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Dear Bert,

Thank you very very much. We are on par again.
And as we know, we always are.

Now with the assumption the BD30 lets true whatever its fed with, the first to do is use the BD30 as main amps. I say it again : I never, really never in the slightest piece of my mind heard anything wrong from the lower regions. And you know me, I don't say this to suit you; I said it earlier in this thread already. And I am honest, as always.

Now from off this status, there is NO REASON to explore anything else than the BD 30 first. :grazy: :grazy:

With all completed finished systems and all completed DIY packages offered
the BD30 is always part of the package because then all should work
optimally when connected or built together.

Of course Bert. That's why I brought up the subject of the subwoofers.
No need to explain, and no need to doubt. But you also didn't go against my wishes not to want a BD30, which probably is the first of such wish you received. Again, this is about respect ...
By now -obviously (haha)- I will reset my mind on this subject.
I say it again, we just never talked about it like in this thread, and for Giulio : thanks for contributing. And, ... if I only had the chance to be ignorant on this subject ... but this is what happens when people respect eachother, I guess ... :blush:

And for some the price is too high, not for the quality they will get but
simply because there are cheaper things around which migth do just as well
in their minds. I have used many different amps for the bass and among
those, the BD30 is still the most accurate one.

Well, as long as you don't think I did it for the price, things can workout optimal here too. That is, I didn't ask for anything (but saving on the BD30's in general) and at this moment only you know the difference ...

True, I did not do that (again, as explained in my reply to Leif), never
thought about that at all! Sometimes things to try are so obvious that it
is overlooked...

Now we're talking ! and so much recognizeable !!
Here another example of me talking to much around a subject, just to prove the importance of a subject :
Last time at my place, nothing sounded right. Not even GC-XP. What did I find the nest day ? (because of the necessity to find the culprit) ... all sounds and everything were activated in my system because of the two weeks earlier attempts to record back the bitperfectness of Vista (Hi Klaus !). Just "forgot" to set that back.
Btw, this made me think that GC should prevent from those wrong settings, which can be done I think.

Hah, more things to explore!

You really are a pal Bert. :clapping:
Peter

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What would be really interesting is if someone (besides Bert) actually had tried the bd30 in a fullrange setup,either single or multi-amp setup.
Is THAT too much to ask,without someone going into the trenches?
Now I´ll go down in the basement to my work-room and do some soldering
Best
Leif

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