Time alignment (Oris Horns)

by Stefan Olofsson, Sweden, Thursday, October 25, 2007, 20:19 (3742 days ago)
edited by unknown, Thursday, October 25, 2007, 20:55

Hi!

I have Oris Reference Basic 200 with AER MD2 drivers. With these very revealing speakers it's important to get all things correctly in position. The speakers placement in the room, toe-in, the horns placement in relation to the bas cabinet and so on. I'm very happy about the way they sound but I would like to know more about the acoustics theories. Why things work the way they do. To be able to optimize their performance and not just experiment without any knowledge.

My question this time is about time alignment: How are the horns supposed to be positioned to optimaly integrate with the bass. Are the voice coils supposed to be "in line" or should I place the horns so that the horn mouth is in line with the bass bin baffle? Why? Please explain this to a curious lawyer :confused: .

Thanks in advance!

/stefan

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Time alignment

by Bert @, Thursday, October 25, 2007, 21:17 (3742 days ago) @ Stefan Olofsson

Hi Stefan,

My question this time is about time alignment: How are the horns
supposed to be positioned to optimaly integrate with the bass. Are the
voice coils supposed to be "in line" or should I place the horns so that
the horn mouth is in line with the bass bin baffle? Why? Please explain
this to a curious lawyer :confused: .

Not just time-alignment is important but also the filtering used if you are heading that way. What the best compromise will be depends on the filtering where things can be optimal in phase and timing but needing many components to make that work...

Sometimes using less components is more... Remember, everything in this speaker world is a compromise..

With the filters used for your system (none on the AER and approximately 18dB on the bass) gives the best result when the horn mouth is in line with the baffle of the bass system and the bass or the Oris horns connected in the opposite phase.

It is not just about coils physical aligning, also about delay and phase turns created when filtering. Especially filtering the bass and the "slower" reaction of the bass driver give a certain delay compared to the AER.

I hope this helps?

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Time alignment

by GC, Friday, October 26, 2007, 06:45 (3741 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Stefan,

My question this time is about time alignment: How are the horns
supposed to be positioned to optimaly integrate with the bass. Are the
voice coils supposed to be "in line" or should I place the horns so

that

the horn mouth is in line with the bass bin baffle? Why? Please explain
this to a curious lawyer :confused: .


Not just time-alignment is important but also the filtering used if you
are heading that way. What the best compromise will be depends on the
filtering where things can be optimal in phase and timing but needing many
components to make that work...

Sometimes using less components is more... Remember, everything in this
speaker world is a compromise..

With the filters used for your system (none on the AER and approximately
18dB on the bass) gives the best result when the horn mouth is in line
with the baffle of the bass system and the bass or the Oris horns
connected in the opposite phase.

It is not just about coils physical aligning, also about delay and phase
turns created when filtering. Especially filtering the bass and the
"slower" reaction of the bass driver give a certain delay compared to the
AER.

I hope this helps?

Bert

You are absolutely right in this Bert. When a certain design does not allowe absolute phase alignement, then a puzzle with the parameters can lead to pretty good sound.

But there is only one solution for perfection talking 100% phase- and time alignment, as there can only *be* one. (Ahh...there are actually 7 ways to do it, but only one of them contains minimum phase networks and holds the less amount of components. The rest will show filters of fantastic complexities..Pfew)

Alternatively: Stick to full range drivers, point source, not supported with bass systems or backloads.

Or buy a SWING system. :grin:

GC

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Time alignment

by Stefan Olofsson, Sweden, Tuesday, October 30, 2007, 21:14 (3737 days ago) @ Bert

Thanks a lot (Bert, Stephan and GC) for your answers! I'm experimenting with the position of the horns and now it sounds best with the horn mouth approximately 10-15 cm in front of the baffle of the bass cabinet. I suppose the sound is depending on several parameters such as the room and my listening position etc.

Right now there's only one thing that's irritating me and that is a little hum in the right chanel coming from my SET 2A3 amplifier. This will be fixed in a while.

Soon I will have my turntable in working condition and my new CD-player arrives next week so I can enjoy listening to all my records and CDs on my fantastic system :grin: . I've had a couple of friends over for listening the last couple of days and it's RAVE REVIEWS for the Oris horns :clapping: !

I'm really happy with the way the horns present the music. They are so increadibly revealing. Every little nuance in the recording is presented in a microscopic way. I have never really experimented with different cables and haven't "believed" in cables. Last Saturday i was listening with a friend. He brougt his CD-player and a pair of Nordost Red Dawn interconnects. After a while he swiched from my "cheap" Audioquest Sidewinder to the Red Dawns. It was a stunning experience! The Red Dawns just ruined the sound. It became way too "forward" and aggressive. Attack and details just tore the "soundscape" apart. The airy, fluent and realistic sound and timbre was gone. The cheap cables just kicked ass! So now I know that "matching" components and cables is not just BS. My friend said he had never ever experienced such a big difference in sound just by switching cables. So, the Oris and AER are very "picky" about what you feed them a through what you feed them.

/stefan

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Time alignment

by Bert @, Tuesday, October 30, 2007, 23:06 (3737 days ago) @ Stefan Olofsson

Dear Stefan,

Good to read that you are getting things in order and yes, the more transparent the system, the more important the things you give the speakers become.

At least you can hear what you are doing more clearly now! :cool:

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

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Time alignment

by madprofessor ⌂, 27777 Ganderkesee, Germany, Thursday, October 25, 2007, 21:34 (3742 days ago) @ Stefan Olofsson

Hallo Stefan!

Most of the proper alignment can also be measured, but it needs some equipment.I use a very fast pulse-generator and put 10Hz spaced pulses to my system. Than I take a microphone at my listening position. The microphone-signal is fed to a Rhode & Schwarz preamp and than processed in a Tektronix DSA602 Analyzer.
By moving the speakerss, it´s possible to find the best pulse response by measurements. Than I always do checks with carefull listening tests.
Works, but takes a lot of time...
Except that, I agree with everything Bert wrote about the topic!

Best regaards
Stephan

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